ETA?

[fogger]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

The main issue is that it takes some effort and involvement by the developer, which some are not willing to do. It also takes good judgement to decide when/how to put things out there.

The problem with this is that it would take Ralph away from putting ALL his effort into developing the game.Things are moving. In July there were 13 Updates (another one last night). If Ralph had to put some effort into giving general reports, then there may have only been 8,9,10,11?????? updates in July. Work that he has done in July would not have been done until August.

I know that waiting is a real pain in the butt but look at the big picture.

[76mm]

@fogger whatever, all devs have limited time, some are willing to engage with the community, some aren't. You and other privy people keep talking about how many updates there have been, etc., but us plebes have no idea about the substance of these updates--fixing a typo or some substantive fixes--so constant reference to x number of updates in time period y are not particularly helpful.

Devs will do what they want, as will gamers. All I know is that with devs that have engaged with the community, I will usually buy their games to support their efforts. With other devs I will buy their games when/if I've read enough reviews to get comfortable that whatever they've done is interesting to me, which I'll have to figure out from other gamers.

[BradK82]

The only thing that determines buying for me is how much is there compared to 3.4. I would rather wait for release to know that anyway. I need people to tell me how some of the old scenarios that I love will play with the new version. If I think it is worth it I will buy. If not I will stay with 3.4. Regardless updates or no updates right now will not change this. We pretty much what TOAW is -right, so I will be happy either way.

[biddrafter2]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

I don't really agree with this...there have been many other games that resolved this "dilemma" rather well, such as CSME and the recent Barbarossa game here at Matrix, the CM games, etc. The main issue is that it takes some effort and involvement by the developer, which some are not willing to do. It also takes good judgement to decide when/how to put things out there.

Some effort and involvement is the main issue? Good judgement is required? Why.... it is all so simple! Someone let Ralph know immediately.

Your comment is *exactly* why so many companies refuse to perform anything other than cursory and non-interactive communication before a game release. The same individuals clamoring for information beforehand also tend to be the same ones who complain the loudest when published timelines are not met due to unforeseen difficulties. For single developer labors of love like TOAW this problem is magnified because of lack of dev cover. The benefit of no communication is less soul-sucking irritation of the dev(s) with the cost of making the die-hards angry.

This is why it is a "dilemma", to use your scare quotes. But the die-hards are more likely to come back than the dev and so we see this over and over.

[Lobster]

ORIGINAL: fogger


The problem with this is that it would take Ralph away from putting ALL his effort into developing the game.Things are moving. In July there were 13 Updates (another one last night). If Ralph had to put some effort into giving general reports, then there may have only been 8,9,10,11?????? updates in July. Work that he has done in July would not have been done until August.

I know that waiting is a real pain in the butt but look at the big picture.

Do you seriously think people believe taking five or ten minutes to post a message is going to have a negative effect on development? [:D]

I will buy this game only if I am still obligated to when it is eventually released.

[FF_1079]

Yeah, it takes 10 minutes max to make a monthly ( or even bi-monthly ) post on game progress. There has been considerable progress as evidenced by posts from Fogger and Larry, why "Ralph" has decided to not update is between him and Matrix. The argument that people might be peeved and argue with the dev's over development is spurious, want a non-interactive environment with your customers, go to work for the US Postal service ....

I'm not hammering ANYONE for the pace of development, both parties ( customers and developers ) want the best game achievable. If you don't have the skills to post updates, allow Matrix or a beta tester to DO IT FOR YOU. This is not like inventing LINUX, it's an upgrade of existing code. I am sure it is both time consuming and difficult, but not updating progress is a relic of the 80's and early 90's.

[SMK-at-work]

ORIGINAL: josant

I also dont understand this policy of radio silence, you only have to look at how many new messages are put in the toaw 3 forum and in the toaw 4 forum (nearly 0 per month), people are losing interest in the game and looking for other options.

Who?

non posting is not necessarily a sign of non interest - for me it is a sign of "watching, watching, watching....nothing to say atm..."

[Meyer1]

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

ORIGINAL: josant

I also dont understand this policy of radio silence, you only have to look at how many new messages are put in the toaw 3 forum and in the toaw 4 forum (nearly 0 per month), people are losing interest in the game and looking for other options.

Who?

non posting is not necessarily a sign of non interest - for me it is a sign of "watching, watching, watching....nothing to say atm..."

Regardless of individual cases such as yours, I think that the scarce forum activity is a pretty good sign of general lack of interest. Besides, people have to know that the game exists to be interested in it. TOAW need new players.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: jakobscalpel
Your comment is *exactly* why so many companies refuse to perform anything other than cursory and non-interactive communication before a game release. The same individuals clamoring for information beforehand also tend to be the same ones who complain the loudest when published timelines are not met due to unforeseen difficulties.

I'm not sure how you draw that conclusion, most of the people here are complaining about lack of information, not delays (despite the fact that the delays have been very significant). In any event, I think that the main reason most devs don't interact with the community is that they don't think it is very important to do so.

Personally I don't care much when/if this game comes out; all I know is that I'm much more likely to buy it if there seems to be a community (based on forum chatter) and the dev engages with that community.

[Lobster]

ORIGINAL: 76mm
and the dev engages with that community.

Actually he used to. And the vast majority of the communities reaction to his communications was positive and supportive. Why he quit baffles me. It doesn't take but five minutes to say 'hi and things are going well but we have bug a, b and c to iron out this week'. Look at the stuff the single dev for John Tiller Campaign Series gave that game's community.

[Lobster]

And here: http://operationalwarfare.com/

[FF_1079]

ORIGINAL: Lobster

And here: http://operationalwarfare.com/

I actually enjoyed that thread on Ralph's forum entry. It was honest and educated - I could not help him because I lack the requisite programming knowledge, but I was able to appreciate what he was trying to do. Stuff like that is priceless for nerds like me. Post something like that once a month, and instead of begging for updates on the game, I am busy digging into the syntax of the code, trying to see if I can find an answer.

[Meyer1]

[Lobster]

Used to be a fun place.

[fogger]

What is the use of posting any information? ALL the testers have signed a NDA so we are limited in what we can post. A fact of life so get use to it.

Every time Larry and I try and give some limited information all we get back is BITCHING.

Stop shooting the messagers.

[Meyer1]

ORIGINAL: fogger

What is the use of posting any information? ALL the testers have signed a NDA so we are limited in what we can post. A fact of life so get use to it.

Every time Larry and I try and give some limited information all we get back is BITCHING.

Stop shooting the messagers.

Nobody is shooting the messengers, in fact, the opposite is true. The criticism is directed towards the developers and their decision to not give any information, with the visible result of this forum being dead. That's all.

[Catch21]

Or to put it another way, there are a lot of targets (messengers included), there just aren't many people shooting anymore.

This is taking so long, some veteran TOAWers are now too old to lift a gun, or worse they've just passed on.

Since you guys as testers are presumably unpaid volunteers, have you considered, as an altruistic service to the fading, dwindling remnants of the community, the possibility of posting the source code on GitHub (or some such repository) and then organizing and project managing an open source PROGRAMMING effort.

This might be the only way TOAW moves forward in any timely, constructive way (and maybe before the testers have passed on too).

DISCLAIMER: I have recently initiated a position in a game of Tobruk 41.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: General Staff
Since you guys as testers are presumably unpaid volunteers, have you considered, as an altruistic service to the fading, dwindling remnants of the community, the possibility of posting the source code on GitHub (or some such repository) and then organizing and project managing an open source PROGRAMMING effort.

hmmm, could be tough since they presumably neither have nor own the source code...

[larryfulkerson]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: General Staff
Since you guys as testers are presumably unpaid volunteers, have you considered, as an altruistic service to the fading, dwindling remnants of the community, the possibility of posting the source code on GitHub (or some such repository) and then organizing and project managing an open source PROGRAMMING effort.

hmmm, could be tough since they presumably neither have nor own the source code...

I asked David Heath for the TOAW source code many many years ago and he didn't think that was a good idea. No go.

[Catch21]

ORIGINAL: 76mme]
hmmm, could be tough since they presumably neither have nor own the source code...

There's at least one- and unless there's been some systemic failure within Matrix more than one- copy of the source code.

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson
I asked David Heath for the TOAW source code many many years ago and he didn't think that was a good idea. No go.

Since as you say, that was many many years ago (is David still around?), maybe it's worth revisiting. You- nor I- are getting any younger...

It's a good job this isn't a board game- it would be much harder to play test spinning around in a wheelchair with all those rule books and physical counters...