Air Transport Operational Losses

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition

User avatar
mussey
Posts: 682
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:21 pm
Location: Cleve-Land

RE: Air Transport Operational Losses

Post by mussey »

ORIGINAL: Barb

I doubt it. As Far As I Know the servicing is done only on the home base. So a Roll is made for a flight just as if it was a fighter/bomber mission - based on Plane fatigue, Pilot fatigue, Weather, Pilot exp, at least.
I am not sure which weather affects the results - that on home base only (just like fighter/bomber missions) = landing accidents, or the one on receiving end, or both ?

What works for me is to stand down planes in days where weather is Rainy/Thunderstorms in one of the Home/Delivery base. This way you usually take-of, fly, land, take-of, fly, land in rather nice weather. It also keeps plane/pilot fatigue down due to maintenance and service in "soaked in" days.
Thanks for a good suggestion.

This is a part of the game that that frustrates me, namely the micromanagement of very mundane actions that could be automated. It would be nice if AC had 'weather' settings where an air squadron can have an option not to fly in stormy weather, or automatically stand down once a certain plane fatigue is reached.

So a question. What is more important for air transport missions, General experience or Trans skill?[&:]
Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"

User avatar
BBfanboy
Posts: 19688
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:36 pm
Location: Winnipeg, MB
Contact:

RE: Air Transport Operational Losses

Post by BBfanboy »

ORIGINAL: mussey
ORIGINAL: Barb

I doubt it. As Far As I Know the servicing is done only on the home base. So a Roll is made for a flight just as if it was a fighter/bomber mission - based on Plane fatigue, Pilot fatigue, Weather, Pilot exp, at least.
I am not sure which weather affects the results - that on home base only (just like fighter/bomber missions) = landing accidents, or the one on receiving end, or both ?

What works for me is to stand down planes in days where weather is Rainy/Thunderstorms in one of the Home/Delivery base. This way you usually take-of, fly, land, take-of, fly, land in rather nice weather. It also keeps plane/pilot fatigue down due to maintenance and service in "soaked in" days.
Thanks for a good suggestion.

This is a part of the game that that frustrates me, namely the micromanagement of very mundane actions that could be automated. It would be nice if AC had 'weather' settings where an air squadron can have an option not to fly in stormy weather, or automatically stand down once a certain plane fatigue is reached.

So a question. What is more important for air transport missions, General experience or Trans skill?[&:]
No data to support it but it seems that Exp is more important for nursing sputtering engines back to base or surviving bad weather while Trans is more for getting the job done well - especially on parachute ops (I think it affects casualty rates).
I think the "flying in bad weather" choice can be reduced by having the squadron commander with aggression only in the 50s range. Transport missions are rarely "must-do-at-all-costs".
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
User avatar
mussey
Posts: 682
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:21 pm
Location: Cleve-Land

RE: Air Transport Operational Losses

Post by mussey »

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: mussey
ORIGINAL: Barb

I doubt it. As Far As I Know the servicing is done only on the home base. So a Roll is made for a flight just as if it was a fighter/bomber mission - based on Plane fatigue, Pilot fatigue, Weather, Pilot exp, at least.
I am not sure which weather affects the results - that on home base only (just like fighter/bomber missions) = landing accidents, or the one on receiving end, or both ?

What works for me is to stand down planes in days where weather is Rainy/Thunderstorms in one of the Home/Delivery base. This way you usually take-of, fly, land, take-of, fly, land in rather nice weather. It also keeps plane/pilot fatigue down due to maintenance and service in "soaked in" days.
Thanks for a good suggestion.

This is a part of the game that that frustrates me, namely the micromanagement of very mundane actions that could be automated. It would be nice if AC had 'weather' settings where an air squadron can have an option not to fly in stormy weather, or automatically stand down once a certain plane fatigue is reached.

So a question. What is more important for air transport missions, General experience or Trans skill?[&:]
No data to support it but it seems that Exp is more important for nursing sputtering engines back to base or surviving bad weather while Trans is more for getting the job done well - especially on parachute ops (I think it affects casualty rates).
I think the "flying in bad weather" choice can be reduced by having the squadron commander with aggression only in the 50s range. Transport missions are rarely "must-do-at-all-costs".
Once again - excellent points! Thanks. [&o]

That's what I'm assuming too..... that Exper is more important (for operational losses), but never understood how that compared to Trans skill. On that note, I used to fill trans sqdrns w/leftover fighter pilots w/good experience levels to try to reduce ops losses, but was concerned about their low trans skills, never quite understanding the consequences of this action.

Nevertheless, I'm going to try tinkering w/Air trans leaders w/ various aggression ratings to see what happens when flying in bad weather. Thanks.
Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"

bobdina
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:08 pm

RE: Air Transport Operational Losses

Post by bobdina »

Transport Missions as Principle Role

Missions include Supply Transport and Troop Transport. Air Groups include Transports, Patrol, and Level Bombers. Assign leader using these priorities:


Inspiration –Influences air group morale recovery.
Leadership – Influences the air group’s experience gain.
Of small import, Air Skill influences results in air-to-air combat.
No other skills or qualities have any influence. This is from the how to choose leaders thread that has been endorsed by Symon Whole thread here tm.asp?m=2350193&mpage=1&key= Symons post 30 deals with finer points. As a side note I train to 50 exp and 70 trans for trans squads and have low ops loses using the leaders guide for my squadrons no matter what kind.
User avatar
Barb
Posts: 2503
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:17 am
Location: Bratislava, Slovakia

RE: Air Transport Operational Losses

Post by Barb »

Train Transport skill and then general, maybe add some hauling at short range.
- the ops losses are a function of EXP, while the "mission success" is function of skill (but I am not sure how this is incorporated into transport mission - for other skills it is relatively visible - an A2A kill or torpedo/bomb hit)
Image
User avatar
BBfanboy
Posts: 19688
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:36 pm
Location: Winnipeg, MB
Contact:

RE: Air Transport Operational Losses

Post by BBfanboy »

ORIGINAL: Barb

Train Transport skill and then general, maybe add some hauling at short range.
- the ops losses are a function of EXP, while the "mission success" is function of skill (but I am not sure how this is incorporated into transport mission - for other skills it is relatively visible - an A2A kill or torpedo/bomb hit)
I think Trans skill would help if you were para-dropping supplies to troops in the field - more supply getting to the target.

As for the post by bobdina, I find it strange that Air skill is mentioned in connection with A2A (presumably for bombers with defensive armament on Transport missions), but surely Defensive skill plays a role. Like Experience, Defensive skill applies to all aircraft missions.

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
User avatar
mussey
Posts: 682
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:21 pm
Location: Cleve-Land

RE: Air Transport Operational Losses

Post by mussey »

ORIGINAL: bobdina

Transport Missions as Principle Role

Missions include Supply Transport and Troop Transport. Air Groups include Transports, Patrol, and Level Bombers. Assign leader using these priorities:


Inspiration –Influences air group morale recovery.
Leadership – Influences the air group’s experience gain.
Of small import, Air Skill influences results in air-to-air combat.
No other skills or qualities have any influence. This is from the how to choose leaders thread that has been endorsed by Symon Whole thread here tm.asp?m=2350193&mpage=1&key= Symons post 30 deals with finer points. As a side note I train to 50 exp and 70 trans for trans squads and have low ops loses using the leaders guide for my squadrons no matter what kind.
Thanks for pointing this out. I just re-read his Leaders printout and you are correct. It looks like Aggression isn't a factor for any air mission? One would think it would be used similar to naval as a factor in seeking trouble or avoidance.

Come to think of it, is there an option in the air mission screen that allows for risk/threat similar to naval's? When I get home I'm going to check this.
Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"

User avatar
HansBolter
Posts: 7191
Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:30 pm
Location: United States

RE: Air Transport Operational Losses

Post by HansBolter »

ORIGINAL: mussey

Thanks for a good suggestion.

This is a part of the game that that frustrates me, namely the micromanagement of very mundane actions that could be automated. It would be nice if AC had 'weather' settings where an air squadron can have an option not to fly in stormy weather, or automatically stand down once a certain plane fatigue is reached.

So a question. What is more important for air transport missions, General experience or Trans skill?[&:]

While the entire squadron won't cancel a mission due to plane fatigue (or at least very rarely) the individual planes will be stood down and transferred into maintenance mode.

This is being handled automatically and is as often as not the reason why less than the entire squadron flies any given mission.
Hans

User avatar
Yaab
Posts: 5041
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:09 pm
Location: Poland

RE: Air Transport Operational Losses

Post by Yaab »

ORIGINAL: Barb

I doubt it. As Far As I Know the servicing is done only on the home base. So a Roll is made for a flight just as if it was a fighter/bomber mission - based on Plane fatigue, Pilot fatigue, Weather, Pilot exp, at least.
I am not sure which weather affects the results - that on home base only (just like fighter/bomber missions) = landing accidents, or the one on receiving end, or both ?

What works for me is to stand down planes in days where weather is Rainy/Thunderstorms in one of the Home/Delivery base. This way you usually take-of, fly, land, take-of, fly, land in rather nice weather. It also keeps plane/pilot fatigue down due to maintenance and service in "soaked in" days.

OK, I have browsed the manual for all entries for "Aviation Support" and "Transport Mission". Every time the manual speaks about Av Support it is in the context of the operating base, and not the receiving base.So I guess it is completely WAD to fly 200 transports to a level 5 airfield with 0 aviation support. I am not happy with it, but I can live with that.

But I have another question:

Can you fly a transport mission to an airfield that is 100% DAMAGED? Will the aircraft land or drop the supply then?
User avatar
mussey
Posts: 682
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:21 pm
Location: Cleve-Land

RE: Air Transport Operational Losses

Post by mussey »

So pilot trans skill has no factor in transporting to an airbase but does when para-dropping? Just want to get to the bottom of this. If this is true, then it would be advantageous to fill transport slots with fighter pilots/high experience for base to base missions. Yes?
Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"

User avatar
mussey
Posts: 682
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:21 pm
Location: Cleve-Land

RE: Air Transport Operational Losses

Post by mussey »

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: mussey

Thanks for a good suggestion.

This is a part of the game that that frustrates me, namely the micromanagement of very mundane actions that could be automated. It would be nice if AC had 'weather' settings where an air squadron can have an option not to fly in stormy weather, or automatically stand down once a certain plane fatigue is reached.

So a question. What is more important for air transport missions, General experience or Trans skill?[&:]
Hans, thanks for the clarification. I think it's time to bring the manual back to my nightstand for emergency bedtime reading!

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"

User avatar
Yaab
Posts: 5041
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:09 pm
Location: Poland

RE: Air Transport Operational Losses

Post by Yaab »

No. Transport planes have the lowest durability out of all twin-engine aircraft in the whole game. That is why they die like flies in bad weather, and your experienced fighter pilots will not change that. Actually, try using bombers for supply runs. B-26 Marauder has 40 durability ( 10 points more than DC-2 Coffin) and carries 2 points of supply (they have 4000 capacity). Best Allied early transport for sure.
bobdina
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:08 pm

RE: Air Transport Operational Losses

Post by bobdina »

yes, since using this guide I have very few squadron leaders with high aggression and haven't noticed any change and this is going into 1946 in 2 complete campaigns. Makes choosing squadron leaders much easier instead of always looking for good aggressive leaders. Again this is over 2 complete games of a couple years. I've done 4 complete campaigns 2 with using high aggression leaders only then changed everything after reading that guide and have had no problems. I think ,although for me thats pretty hard ,my ops loses were way down choosing leaders the guide way or I would have discarded it. This is for Mussey sorry about that. And I always train transport to 70 trans no matter if they drop troopers or supply.
User avatar
Shark7
Posts: 7936
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:11 pm
Location: The Big Nowhere

RE: Air Transport Operational Losses

Post by Shark7 »

ORIGINAL: Yaab

No. Transport planes have the lowest durability out of all twin-engine aircraft in the whole game. That is why they die like flies in bad weather, and your experienced fighter pilots will not change that. Actually, try using bombers for supply runs. B-26 Marauder has 40 durability ( 10 points more than DC-2 Coffin) and carries 2 points of supply (they have 4000 capacity). Best Allied early transport for sure.

Am I right in thinking that cargo planes, like the C-47 for example, were really nothing more than civilian airliners with some modifications to carry out the cargo mission? Meaning that they weren't really 'militarized' in having the armor protection of the purpose built bombers. If so, you can see how they would be so vulnerable to anything that could shoot at them.
Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'
User avatar
rustysi
Posts: 7472
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:23 am
Location: LI, NY

RE: Air Transport Operational Losses

Post by rustysi »

More or less, at least early war. Not sure about C-46 or some other later models. Some like the Helen were mods of bombers. I even think the 'Iron Annie' (Ju-52) was an early bomber design.
It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb
User avatar
Shark7
Posts: 7936
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:11 pm
Location: The Big Nowhere

RE: Air Transport Operational Losses

Post by Shark7 »

The JU-52 was a 17 passenger pre-war airliner, but had the benefit of an all metal construction even in its civilian form. It was modified to fill the bomber role as well as cargo transport. Probably one of the better aircraft of the time period, being all metal made it very robust.

I think it is safe to say that in reality, any transport aircraft presents as a large, slow target. Don't use them where enemy fighters have control.
Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'
User avatar
LoBaron
Posts: 4775
Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2003 8:23 pm
Location: Vienna, Austria

RE: Air Transport Operational Losses

Post by LoBaron »

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Thread resurrection.

No-one has addressed one thing yet, namely aviation support numbers at the RECEIVING airfield. If you fly 30 transport aircraft laden with supply to a level 6 airfield with just 20 aviation support squads there, will that affect operational losses on the return leg?

EDIT: Actually, I guess there are situations when the receiving airfield has no aviation support at all.

No.

And be careful in what you conclude from this thread, it is full of another set of urban legends.
Image
User avatar
Yaab
Posts: 5041
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:09 pm
Location: Poland

RE: Air Transport Operational Losses

Post by Yaab »

Just made a short test on Friday.

I damaged Paoshan airfield 100%, put the units there on rest ( so engineers do not fix the airfield) and tried flying supplies from Kunming with 21 DC-2s while there were 10 aviation support squads in Kunming.

Results.

- Paoshan airfield was being fixed anyway. Turn 2:97%, turn 3: 95% etc. So even with the engineers at Rest the airfield was getting repaired.

-there was no on-map message about supplies being delivered during the AIR TRANSPORT phase.

-the DC-2 pilots were accruing missions flown. On turn 3 some had 4 missions flown

-after three turns 15 aircraft were operational,while 6 were being repaired in Kunming


SUMMARY

Test inconclusive. Since I cannot cut-off Paoshan from supply from other cities, I don't know if the aircraft have delivered the supplies or not.
User avatar
BBfanboy
Posts: 19688
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:36 pm
Location: Winnipeg, MB
Contact:

RE: Air Transport Operational Losses

Post by BBfanboy »

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Just made a short test on Friday.

I damaged Paoshan airfield 100%, put the units there on rest ( so engineers do not fix the airfield) and tried flying supplies from Kunming with 21 DC-2s while there were 10 aviation support squads in Kunming.

Results.

- Paoshan airfield was being fixed anyway. Turn 2:97%, turn 3: 95% etc. So even with the engineers at Rest the airfield was getting repaired.

-there was no on-map message about supplies being delivered during the AIR TRANSPORT phase.

-the DC-2 pilots were accruing missions flown. On turn 3 some had 4 missions flown

-after three turns 15 aircraft were operational,while 6 were being repaired in Kunming


SUMMARY

Test inconclusive. Since I cannot cut-off Paoshan from supply from other cities, I don't know if the aircraft have delivered the supplies or not.
Any unit can repair runways (but engineers are best of course), but the Airfield Service component needs engineers.

Did you observe any increase to delivered supply from the aircraft? (don't know how it can be separated from normal supply unless the AF usually gets supply once or twice a week and you did the test in between deliveries.)
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
User avatar
geofflambert
Posts: 14887
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2010 2:18 pm
Location: St. Louis

RE: Air Transport Operational Losses

Post by geofflambert »

George Peppard had 100% ops losses in "The Blue Max".

Post Reply

Return to “War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition”