AI Builds Really Fast??

Advanced Tactics is a versatile turn-based strategy system that gives gamers the chance to wage almost any battle in any time period. The initial release focuses on World War II and includes a number of historical scenarios as well as a full editor! This forum supports both the original Advanced Tactics and the new and improved Advanced Tactics: Gold Edition.

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AngryDJS
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AI Builds Really Fast??

Post by AngryDJS »

Hi guys. I've got the hang of this game and am improving but have lost every battle so far. Anyhow I noticed the AI builds units extremely fast and I cannot keep up. How does it do it? Example, play a new dawn random game with difficulty set to default with a 1 city start I watched the AI build 60 infantry and 18 armored cars after just two turns! No wonder I can't keep up. Help? suggestions?...should I lower the difficulty setting. Is the AI cheating? Thanks for any thoughts you have.
Dave
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Tac2i
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RE: AI Builds Really Fast??

Post by Tac2i »

First, all AI's 'cheat' in some way or else it would always be a cakewalk for the human player. Second, in a one town start it is vitally important that you expand rapidly. Third, once you get more experience at the game you will be asking why can't the AI play better. Read through some of the AARs to get a feel for how others are handling things. See this post if you have not reviewed it already: tm.asp?m=3677219.

Welcomne to ATG!
Tac2i (formerly webizen)
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ernieschwitz
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RE: AI Builds Really Fast??

Post by ernieschwitz »

I don't agree with Webizen on this one. All AIs don't cheat. But all AIs of reasonably complex games cheat.

Example: Chess, there the AI does not cheat, but the rules are pretty fixed, and the number of choices that a player can make are pretty small, compared to complex games.

Once games become complex enough, then the AIs become more and more confused, and need help. This help is usually in the form of a "cheat" of some sort. With ATG, where the goal was to have an AI for every permutation of the rules, this proved to be a very complex proposition. Most everything in ATG is modable, thus the AI needs to function in almost all situations. This of course leads to a more or less simple AI, that needs help.

It is almost as if there is a law: The greater complexity of the game, the less the AI will be able to do, within an acceptable timeframe.

How complex ATG can become? Well I have seen everything from ancient games, to science fiction, in scales from planetary down to 5 km pr hex, or less. I have seen people use cards and code to make the game function differently from ordinary games, in a way that requires people to even stop and think for a long time. Just take the diplomacy part from GD 1938, and try and make an AI understand that!



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Try this Global WW2 Scenario: https://www.vrdesigns.net/scenario.php?nr=280
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CSO_Talorgan
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RE: AI Builds Really Fast??

Post by CSO_Talorgan »

Close Combat's AI does not cheat.
AngryDJS
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RE: AI Builds Really Fast??

Post by AngryDJS »

Hi guys. Just wanted to say thank you for the responses. Yeah, started thinking more about how the AI is going about it's initial production and think I've learned something. I think I was wasting too much time initially building infantry and it jumps right to armor cars.
Thanks for all of the links. I think I'll take some time and look at those as well. Thanks again!

Dave
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ernieschwitz
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RE: AI Builds Really Fast??

Post by ernieschwitz »

ORIGINAL: CSO_Talorgan

Close Combat's AI does not cheat.

First of all that is a real bad comparison, how do you know that a real time system doesn't cheat. I mean, can you physcially do all the stuff it can do in the same amount of time? It can easily mask bad decisions by rapid calculations you cannot even begin to fathom (or i). ...

A fair comparison would be to a non-realtime system. If you give a non-realtime system the same time you had to think over its moves that you use in a non-realtime system, it would kick you across the screen easily... I usually like to take an hours time to do a turn, in some of the games i play. Imagine a system that had the luxury of that time to compute the moves it wanted for each AI...?

Sounds awesome, but would you wait for that? Be honest now.
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Rosseau
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RE: AI Builds Really Fast??

Post by Rosseau »

In another example, it's a lot easier to create an AI for a game like Drive on Moscow, as the player is severely limited in what he or she can do. It's been ported over, which is another sign AI and other features are limited. It is also only $10.
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altipueri
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RE: AI Builds Really Fast??

Post by altipueri »

Was the answer to the original question - Yes, the AI does cheat - it builds units quicker/cheaper/has greater LOS than the human player?

This is an enquiry, not a criticism. If I lose war games on simple level by bad production or tactical decisions that's fine - I can improve. If I'm losing because it makes two tanks to my one or its hit percentages are better then maybe I can't.



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ernieschwitz
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RE: AI Builds Really Fast??

Post by ernieschwitz »

Before you go all bonkers over that the AI can do things you cannot - it is also fair to ask, can you do things the AI cannot. The answer to that question is yes.

You can make good formations, that work well together, while the AI seems to be unable to even make motorized units. Another thing the AI can't is use aircraft carriers, the concept itself escapes it, it does not know which planes fit well and which do, and it is not programmed to be able to fly planes from other places than airbases. The AI does not know how to use paratroopers (so no need to garrison behind the lines for you). The AI while it can evaluate researches, that it currently can research and see what advantage that one research gives, it cannot look at the long picture, and thus, while it is good at tactics, sucks at strategy. And finally the AI does not understand the concept of DOWs. It won't be able to declare war against you, unless you are inferior to it. It does not understand the concept of Allies, to it all players are opponents (or get ignorred competely)...

Having said all that... You might understand why the AI needs some advantages to counter a few of your advantages.
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Ormand
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RE: AI Builds Really Fast??

Post by Ormand »

The short answer to your question is NO and Yes.

The Long Answer.

At the standard "AI" level (not "AI+" or "AI++") the AI doesn't get any production bonuses (it does, bigly, for the other two). Basically, a tank will cost human and AI players the same production points. In addition, there are events that make the AI production resource compliant. That said, the AI does get some advantages that will cost you production points and time to catch up with it.

1. The AI gets free strategic movement. In addition, it does not lose readiness from it. On the other hand, you will have to allocate precious production points to build trains. And very soon, you will be resource limited to produce them. Thus, the AI can move its forces up to the front much faster than you can, and its units will have better readiness. The new TOE system helps to reduce this imbalance as these transfers use less LANDCAP. And, the units have better readiness. But, they take two turns.

2. The AI gets "free" upgrades to the resource hexes. It doesn't need engineers or PP's to do this. Each turn there is a probability that the resource hex will be upgraded. I also suspect the building of roads doesn't use resources either.

3. The AI can reassign units to HQs without a readiness hit.

All of these give the AI an advantage in the early turns while you are trying to catch up. The AI will move its forces up to the border and be ready to go. And you will have your forces halfway to the front. Generally speaking, you can look at it this like a "Pearl Harbor" event and you have to reorganize and strike back. Indeed, I think the AI is extremely vulnerable to what I call the BBBA strategy, Build, Block, Bleed, and Attack. The basic goal is to develop a defensive line to man and hold with well-balanced infantry so that the AI will suffer enough attrition to be vulnerable to a counter strike.

1. Build:
My favorite mix for an infantry division looks like:
27 rifle/SMG
9 MG
3 Mortar
3 Inf Gun
3 AT Gun
3 Bazooka
Transportation for the artillery units.

This is close to a historical formation, and they have the ability to defend fairly well, and with two of these in a hex, it is hard for the AI to break it. Building these might be a bit tricky depending on the start. Namely if you have to start from scratch with the Inf Gun and AT Guns, which are pretty expensive.

2. Block: Find a defensible line that you can reinforce. Sometimes cities on the border might be too hard to defend and you will have to give them up. "Better to lose a city than an army". Basically, you need to slow the AI down so that you can get your defensive line in place. It doesn't have to be two deep everywhere. Pick the likely points of attack, and use terrain to help. Put artillery behind the line to launch artillery barrages on the AI front. In your turns, generally avoid assaulting the AI so that you build up your entrenchment factor. Rather, use artillery and air to conduct attacks on the AI line to inflict losses in personnel and readiness. Readiness is very important as it determines the effectiveness of attacks and defense.

3. Bleed: When this line is in place, the AI will commit suicide on it. Every turn, it will attack various points along the line, but it will generally NOT go all in, and attack with a massive artillery barrage, airstrike, and overstack attack to break the line. The AI will attack up and down the line and will generally suffer a loss ratio of 2:1. If you choose to counterattack, pick AI units that you can maul badly, but remember this will affect your entrenchment.

4. Attack: While this defensive action is going on, you will need to feed replacements in, which the TOE system will do fairly well. And, you should be building a powerful strike force. In particular, a mobilized armored army. Over time, the AI's loss rate will high enough that many of the AIs front-line units will become weak. In fact, you will probably find that the line is ready to be attacked before your armored army is actually ready to go. But, once this happens, the game will likely domino to the end: the AI suffering losses in manpower and readiness that it will have a hard time keeping up with. You need to put enough pressure on the AI so that you can get an envelopment and wipe out say ten units. You also need to make sure you don't deplete your own unit's readiness. If you do this right, the AI will have a hard time recovering from this and you should win.
One man alone can be pretty dumb sometimes, but for real bona fide stupidity, there ain't nothin' can beat teamwork -- Edward Abbey
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altipueri
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RE: AI Builds Really Fast??

Post by altipueri »


Thanks for the extensive answer.
warnevada
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RE: AI Builds Really Fast??

Post by warnevada »

I recently set up a game with multiple AI countries which had 15 cities each but all the cities were separated from each other by other territory. In other words there was no communication between them.

Here is what I discovered about AI production. Apparently it adds up all the production points and RAW and produces whatever it wants up to those limits. It then places the production in one or more of its cities regardless of communication status. I would find massive forces in a city way beyond what it's capable of producing.

Maybe this is a bug, Vic can say whether it is or not, or maybe it's another AI Advantage. It may work properly if the cities are separated by water, I haven't tested that aspect.
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