Question regarding delay - readiness (or other) relation

The new Cold War turned hot wargame from On Target Simulations, now expanded with the Player's Edition! Choose the NATO or Soviet forces in one of many scenarios or two linked campaigns. No effort was spared to model modern warfare realistically, including armor, infantry, helicopters, air support, artillery, electronic warfare, chemical and nuclear weapons. An innovative new asynchronous turn order means that OODA loops and various effects on C3 are accurately modeled as never before.

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exsonic01
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Question regarding delay - readiness (or other) relation

Post by exsonic01 »

Hello

First of all, I really wish to say, that I'm in kinda big trouble, because this game is too addictive~! This game already took too much of my time... Oh well, I think I really need something to control myself.

But I have some question, to understand the exact game mechanics regarding delay of initiation of movement order for units. I observed that some of the tank, IFV, and helicopters took more than 1hr of the time, to initiate my movement order (Like Move - Deliberate to xxxx(0615+), but I ordered the movement at 0500). What are the factors influencing on this delay? Electronic Warfare? Within/out of HQ's command range? Readiness? Morale? Degree of training? Engaging or not? Or all of them?

I agree that battlefield is very chaotic and easily out of control, and those delays are essential part of war. I agree that this system itself is OK. But the time duration of this delay is too harsh under some circumstances. I think it would be better if the time duration of this delay penalty, from whatever reason, is adjusted to be declined for some degree, to match with common sense. Plus, if the reason for the delay is explained, that would be even better for commanders to understand what is going on.

To me, it makes no sense, how the elite tank crews with good morale (65%+) and moderate readiness (around 40%) take 1hr+ of time to hasty move one tile behind, and screen. It was high EW hindrance condition, but they finished the last engagement turn around 30 min ago. They hit by arty but no effect. HQ was nearby. What is happening to those crews? Why this tank cannot move until 1hr+ of time? If they were green or regular, I can understand the delay (but still, 1hr+ of delay is not making sense even for regulars or greens), but elite or veteran crews / drivers / pilots usually rarely effected by shell shock, or battlefield chaos. To me, around 15~20min of delay time would be proper for the tank unit under such condition. 1hr+ delay, only because their readiness is 20%, is hard to understand and not realistic IMO.

Things are more strange when it comes to rotational wings. Apache is under fire, but for some reason, pilot said that he will initiate the movement order after 1hr+ of time. That is really weird. FM always teaches the pilots to evade the threat, but in this game, pilot decided to just stay there, only because his readiness dropped to 20% by soviet 14.5mm which gave no harm to him? This is totally out of common sense.... He killed by SA-11 15 min later.

EW hindrance can be a good reason for the delay, but that already considered as the decreased number of possible command per a turn. Does this disrupted radio communication could be the reason for the delay of movement? But still, those units are reacting nicely to hold/screen orders (orders without any movement). To me, it seems that the EW is not the reason, and only orders regarding movement are under the effect of strange delay.

The concept of this "Readiness" is also something strange. I cannot understand why hasty move drains out the readiness of tanks, IFVs, and helicopters, so fast. If it were infantry units, double time march can exhaust them, so it make sense. But crews / drivers / pilots of units would have no trouble with their stamina and concentration, only because they moved in fulls speed for 30 min. Plus, it is hard to imagine somewhere of those vehicles gone wrong, only after 30 min of the hasty movement. What is this "readiness" for those vehicle units? Why this 'readiness' is drained so fast with hasty move?



Again, I'm not against the delay system now. What I'm suggesting is, let's keep the system, but just decline the duration of delay time a bit, and adjust the decreasing rate of readiness, and explain the reason for the viewers.

I served for the nation in infantry regiment in early 2000s, but even then, I never heard of kind of delay is really really hard to understand. It is hard to remember all the FMs I read, but there are no clues to relate/explain this delay in the game. I never heard of pilot/drivers delayed 1hr+ of time to move to the region 500m away from their current position. They can be court-martialed even in the field training, if they delayed the order from their commander without any clear reason, like FPC units do. This is why I think those delays are so strange. I'm playing 2.0.11.6s version.
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CapnDarwin
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RE: Question regarding delay - readiness (or other) relation

Post by CapnDarwin »

exsonic01, we have recognized and worked on getting delays to behave within a certain time frame based on all the factors you list and even with a couple bug fixes times still seem to exceed the limits we have set. At this point for Red Storm it is what it is. We are doing a hole new approach for Southern Storm and it will address the issues above by being a more flexible system by looking at delays in a local setting versus that more global model in Red Storm. This will allow for units within the influence of their local HQ make very quick short range adjustments. As movements move beyond the range of a HQ more delay will be involved as orders move up and back down the chain of command.

As for readiness, everything that a unit does short of sitting still or in resupply/rest, take off readiness at different rates. The more stressful the action the more it impacts readiness. Being shot at will cause a drop.

I've never seen a helo with such an excessive delay. Do you have any save games/screen shots. Save games with info on those issues are one of the best ways for us to track down bugs and fix them. In many cases, we can't replicate or even see those kind of bugs in testing so anything you can give us is a huge help.

Thanks for the well presented info. We take in all these reports and ideas and see what we can apply to the new game engine going forward. [8D]
OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC
exsonic01
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RE: Question regarding delay - readiness (or other) relation

Post by exsonic01 »

ORIGINAL: Capn Darwin

exsonic01, we have recognized and worked on getting delays to behave within a certain time frame based on all the factors you list and even with a couple bug fixes times still seem to exceed the limits we have set. At this point for Red Storm it is what it is. We are doing a hole new approach for Southern Storm and it will address the issues above by being a more flexible system by looking at delays in a local setting versus that more global model in Red Storm. This will allow for units within the influence of their local HQ make very quick short range adjustments. As movements move beyond the range of a HQ more delay will be involved as orders move up and back down the chain of command.

As for readiness, everything that a unit does short of sitting still or in resupply/rest, take off readiness at different rates. The more stressful the action the more it impacts readiness. Being shot at will cause a drop.

I've never seen a helo with such an excessive delay. Do you have any save games/screen shots. Save games with info on those issues are one of the best ways for us to track down bugs and fix them. In many cases, we can't replicate or even see those kind of bugs in testing so anything you can give us is a huge help.

Thanks for the well presented info. We take in all these reports and ideas and see what we can apply to the new game engine going forward. [8D]

Thank you so much. I'm glad that my opinion helped. Usually, I don't save that much frequently, so I don't have a data for that particular matter for now. But it happened to AH-64A in 3rd Herd scenario, and Mi-24V in Red Banner Slam scenario. If I see next one, I will report with save file + screenshot.
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Mad Russian
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RE: Question regarding delay - readiness (or other) relation

Post by Mad Russian »

ORIGINAL: exsonic01

Thank you so much. I'm glad that my opinion helped.

We read every comment and suggestion made to us or about the game. All of them. Wherever we find them.

We take the interaction with our gaming community very seriously. You took the time to comment on the game, the least we can do is take the time to read those comments and if need be adjust the game to reflect whatever can make it better.

Thanks to all of you for your opinion and your support of the game.

We appreciate all of you.

Good Hunting.

MR
The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.
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Deathtreader
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RE: Question regarding delay - readiness (or other) relation

Post by Deathtreader »

ORIGINAL: Capn Darwin

I've never seen a helo with such an excessive delay. Do you have any save games/screen shots. Save games with info on those issues are one of the best ways for us to track down bugs and fix them. In many cases, we can't replicate or even see those kind of bugs in testing so anything you can give us is a huge help.

Hi,

I might be able to help out here. Attached are 2 saves from Crimson Sky ( a user scenario from your website ) where I have a NATO attack chopper unit that has not moved for nearly 90 minutes. Save #1 is at 1015 hours and save #2 is from the same game at 1135 hours. The choppers in question seem to be anchored in hex 1215. The unit will not move for love nor money.

Could this be related to the helo/force leader bug you squashed last week? Or.....

Is it a new bug?? Or.....

Is it WAD??

I'd be very interested in the rationale if it's WAD.

Thanks!

Rob.[:)]

Well, the forum doesn't like zip files today, even though it accepted one a few days ago. Gotta love computers.

I'll PM you the files once I know you've read this.
So we're at war with the Russkies eh?? I suppose we really ought to invade or something. (Lonnnng pause while studying the map)
Hmmmm... big place ain't it??
- Sir Harry Flashman (1854)
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cbelva
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RE: Question regarding delay - readiness (or other) relation

Post by cbelva »

You can send it to me

crbelva@comcast.net
Charles Belva
On Target Simulations LLC
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Deathtreader
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RE: Question regarding delay - readiness (or other) relation

Post by Deathtreader »

ORIGINAL: cbelva

You can send it to me

crbelva@comcast.net


On it's way........ let me know you rec'd it.

thanks.

rob.
So we're at war with the Russkies eh?? I suppose we really ought to invade or something. (Lonnnng pause while studying the map)
Hmmmm... big place ain't it??
- Sir Harry Flashman (1854)
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cbelva
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RE: Question regarding delay - readiness (or other) relation

Post by cbelva »

Rob, I took a glance at your saved game file this morning. I have not had a chance to look it over in detail, but the first thing that jumped out at me is the unit's readiness is at 16%. That is the reason for such a long delay. These guys are spent. Readiness has a big impact on a delay. Besides rearming, they will need time to rest to get their readiness back up. According to the UDP, they can gain 22 readiness points for every hour they rest.

Readiness affects a unit's ability to move and fight. Their movement delay increases, their ability to aim and hit decreases, etc.
Charles Belva
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vettim89
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RE: Question regarding delay - readiness (or other) relation

Post by vettim89 »

ORIGINAL: cbelva

Rob, I took a glance at your saved game file this morning. I have not had a chance to look it over in detail, but the first thing that jumped out at me is the unit's readiness is at 16%. That is the reason for such a long delay. These guys are spent. Readiness has a big impact on a delay. Besides rearming, they will need time to rest to get their readiness back up. According to the UDP, they can gain 22 readiness points for every hour they rest.

Readiness affects a unit's ability to move and fight. Their movement delay increases, their ability to aim and hit decreases, etc.

I get how that mechanism works but why doesn't that unit doesn't "run home to Momma" instead of just dieing in place. I can see dismounted infantry just hunkering down but a helo can use its mobility to break to the rear much more easily
"We have met the enemy and they are ours" - Commodore O.H. Perry
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CapnDarwin
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RE: Question regarding delay - readiness (or other) relation

Post by CapnDarwin »

The bug is the Helo is trying to run to the wrong HQ and is pinned because the HQ in question is blocked by enemy units. We are testing the HQ fix. [8D]
OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC
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RE: Question regarding delay - readiness (or other) relation

Post by vettim89 »

ORIGINAL: Capn Darwin

The bug is the Helo is trying to run to the wrong HQ and is pinned because the HQ in question is blocked by enemy units. We are testing the HQ fix. [8D]

Did I ever tell you how awesome the Dev team is? Your dedication to the small but loyal fan base of this game is amazing [&o][&o][&o]
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RE: Question regarding delay - readiness (or other) relation

Post by CapnDarwin »

Thanks, we like the game as much as you guys and we are working to make it better with this update and insanely better in Southern Storm.

I just tested the scenario and the Helos were now looking at the correct HQ and dropped into resupply.
OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC
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Deathtreader
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RE: Question regarding delay - readiness (or other) relation

Post by Deathtreader »

ORIGINAL: Capn Darwin

Thanks, we like the game as much as you guys and we are working to make it better with this update and insanely better in Southern Storm.

I just tested the scenario and the Helos were now looking at the correct HQ and dropped into resupply.


Hi,

Glad to hear it was due to the known and now fixed HQ bug as opposed to being a new one.
I second vettim89's sentiments regarding your group's unsurpassed level of support. Truly awesome!


Rob.
So we're at war with the Russkies eh?? I suppose we really ought to invade or something. (Lonnnng pause while studying the map)
Hmmmm... big place ain't it??
- Sir Harry Flashman (1854)
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