Soviet 76.2 mm guns/ammunition thread
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Soviet 76.2 mm guns/ammunition thread
I wanted to find some definitive information regarding the various 76.2 mm guns and ammunition/velocities etc. I figured that I would store this information here since the game is east Front based.
My initial search was to confirm that all the Soviet guns used the same ammunition as far as 76,2 mm caliber. It was something I had heard before but wanted to see what data is available now.
Some good sources...
http://ww2data.blogspot.com/
http://www.weapon.df.ru/ammo/76mm/divis1.html
It seems that my search also brought up a technical concern as far as velocities achieved by all these weapons using the same ammunition but having in some cases, different barrel lengths.
The F-22 divisional gun and the F-34 have different barrel lengths for sure. Some state the F-22 has a 51 cal. barrel while the F-34 (T34 gun) has a 41 cal. barrel. I believe the BR-350B round gave 655 m/s for the F-34 while the F-22 gave something like 710 m/s.
My initial search was to confirm that all the Soviet guns used the same ammunition as far as 76,2 mm caliber. It was something I had heard before but wanted to see what data is available now.
Some good sources...
http://ww2data.blogspot.com/
http://www.weapon.df.ru/ammo/76mm/divis1.html
It seems that my search also brought up a technical concern as far as velocities achieved by all these weapons using the same ammunition but having in some cases, different barrel lengths.
The F-22 divisional gun and the F-34 have different barrel lengths for sure. Some state the F-22 has a 51 cal. barrel while the F-34 (T34 gun) has a 41 cal. barrel. I believe the BR-350B round gave 655 m/s for the F-34 while the F-22 gave something like 710 m/s.
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RE: Soviet 76.2 mm guns/ammunition thread
It seems that the Soviet 76.2 mm AA gun actually used different ammunition. These weapons, like many other early designs, fell into German hands and use. I will also 'data-dump' some of the interesting German use and conversions and ammunition manufactured quantities etc. since wargamers have discussed this over the years.
RE: Soviet 76.2 mm guns/ammunition thread
That's near what I have. The F-34 is 41.5 calibers and the F-22 51.5 calibers. Though it seems these are German numbers and they round to the nearest .5 caliber. The ZiS-3 and F-22USV are 42 cal.ORIGINAL: Elron Hubbub
The F-22 divisional gun and the F-34 have different barrel lengths for sure. Some state the F-22 has a 51 cal. barrel while the F-34 (T34 gun) has a 41 cal. barrel. I believe the BR-350B round gave 655 m/s for the F-34 while the F-22 gave something like 710 m/s.
The L41-42 guns have either a 662m/s MV for the BR-350 and BR-350A and 655m/s for the BR-350B.
I have found the F-22 with a MV of 690m/s using Soviet ammo.
So when chambered to fire German ammo the PaK 39 goes from 662m/s to 710m/s and the PaK 36 goes from 690m/s to 740m/s. Both gain ~50m/s.
There's a couple other 76.2mm which may be experimental. The 76.2mm/L50 M-1933 with a MV of 710m/s and the 76.2mm /L51 K3 which had a MV of 813m/s.
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RE: Soviet 76.2 mm guns/ammunition thread
I have read that the ZIS-3 had a longer barrel. This is a ZIS-3...it may actually may not have returned fully to battery.
This is a German converted USV....
and another USV pic...compare to the ZIS-3 one gun back in the pic...
Some sources say that the ZIS-3 used the F-22 barrel?
This is a German converted USV....
and another USV pic...compare to the ZIS-3 one gun back in the pic...
Some sources say that the ZIS-3 used the F-22 barrel?
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RE: Soviet 76.2 mm guns/ammunition thread
The German manual H.Dv. 481/85 covers the German ammunition for the Pak 36 (r)
https://www.scribd.com/doc/142595303/H- ... 11-06-1942
The Pzgr 39 rot is heftier than the Soviet projectile at 7.6 Kg. It is also listed at 2.6 Kg propellant in this document (June '42). In April '44, the Germans list the propellant at 2.45 Kg.
https://www.scribd.com/doc/142595303/H- ... 11-06-1942
The Pzgr 39 rot is heftier than the Soviet projectile at 7.6 Kg. It is also listed at 2.6 Kg propellant in this document (June '42). In April '44, the Germans list the propellant at 2.45 Kg.
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RE: Soviet 76.2 mm guns/ammunition thread
A late war report for the Pak 39 (r) {this is the USV weapon conversion} It confirms that the German manufactured ammunition was for both guns. For the USV-conversion,the muzzle velocity is only 675 M/s?
TM-E 30-451 (Handbook on German Military Forces (War Department) 1 March 1945:
page VII-35
i. 3-inch Antitank Gun (7.62 cm Pak 39).
(1) General Description. This 3-inch antitank gun is a modified version of the Russian field gun 7.62 cm F.K. 297 (r). the chamber is bored out, and a 7.62 Pak 36 muzzle brake is fitted. The breech mechanism is semiautomatic with a vertical sliding block. The mount has box-type trails and pneumatic tires.
(2) Characteristics.
Caliber 76.2mm (3 inches)
Length of tube 11 feet 5 inches
Weight in Action 3,360 pounds
Muzzle Velocity 2,230 feet per second
Traverse 57 degrees
Elevation -6 deg to +45 deg
Traction Motor-drawn
(3) Ammunition. This gun fires the same ammunition as the 7.62 Pak 36 (r), but has somewhat lower performance.
RE: Soviet 76.2 mm guns/ammunition thread
The Aberdeen test gives the MV as 2427f/s (740m/s) for the PaK 36. But report on one captured in the desert gives the MV of 2316 f/s. The Allies didn't have the equipment to determine the MV of the AP40 at the time.
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RE: Soviet 76.2 mm guns/ammunition thread
http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/ARTILLERY3.htm
Interesting information regarding F-22 in Finnish use.
It is worth noting that they somehow used German HEAT projectiles while they did not have the full-monty German conversion to the weapon. Also, they had two self produced AP rounds full and semi charge?
The German conversion is worth mentioning in any case. many people say they "rebored" the weapon. In doing so, they actually are removing the rifling a bit and pushing the overall cartridge, which is longer in the 'pak 40 cartridge brass', further into the weapon. So, in effect, the actual travel of the German projectile is shorter. Instead of a "L51" weapon, it may actually be something like L48 or so. Again, the Germans are throwing a heavier projectile. Also, a much better APCBC-HE projectile. It has much more powder behind it. The Soviets have something close to 1 Kg and the Germans have 2.6 Kg (initially). It really is a great weapon and a God-send for the struggling Germans. Sort of funny...they invade Russia with a bunch a stolen tanks, lose them and also the crappy light German tanks, yet they capture thousands of usefull guns and millions of rounds of ammunition.
Interesting information regarding F-22 in Finnish use.
It is worth noting that they somehow used German HEAT projectiles while they did not have the full-monty German conversion to the weapon. Also, they had two self produced AP rounds full and semi charge?
The German conversion is worth mentioning in any case. many people say they "rebored" the weapon. In doing so, they actually are removing the rifling a bit and pushing the overall cartridge, which is longer in the 'pak 40 cartridge brass', further into the weapon. So, in effect, the actual travel of the German projectile is shorter. Instead of a "L51" weapon, it may actually be something like L48 or so. Again, the Germans are throwing a heavier projectile. Also, a much better APCBC-HE projectile. It has much more powder behind it. The Soviets have something close to 1 Kg and the Germans have 2.6 Kg (initially). It really is a great weapon and a God-send for the struggling Germans. Sort of funny...they invade Russia with a bunch a stolen tanks, lose them and also the crappy light German tanks, yet they capture thousands of usefull guns and millions of rounds of ammunition.
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RE: Soviet 76.2 mm guns/ammunition thread
ORIGINAL: Mobius
The Aberdeen test gives the MV as 2427f/s (740m/s) for the PaK 36. But report on one captured in the desert gives the MV of 2316 f/s. The Allies didn't have the equipment to determine the MV of the AP40 at the time.
I a leery regarding captured North Africa ammunition. The Fur Tropen reduced propellant rears its head. I recently read a British report and they specifically called out KWK ammunition as marked as Fur Tropen and the numbers reflected it.
The German pak 36 (r) certainly had PzGr 40 manufactured for it and would easily have a chance of getting some compared to a Pak 40. They also had and used great quantities of HEAT ammunition.
RE: Soviet 76.2 mm guns/ammunition thread
The Zis-5 using BR-350 is 662 m/s.
http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewc ... odmilintel
More Russian data.
http://tankarchives.blogspot.com/2016/0 ... -1940.html
http://tankarchives.blogspot.com/2013/0 ... art-3.html
http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewc ... odmilintel
More Russian data.
http://tankarchives.blogspot.com/2016/0 ... -1940.html
http://tankarchives.blogspot.com/2013/0 ... art-3.html
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RE: Soviet 76.2 mm guns/ammunition thread
As far as the archive awareness info...
The 76 mm model 1902/30 should really be the /40 version if they are saying it has the same muzzle velocity as the F-34. I would assume that the USV is the model 38 (39).
The F-22 does not appear here? Strange?
The AA gun should be the model 38 which had that high velocity and different ammunition. I will have to see if the Germans developed their own ammunition for these AA guns.
The Soviets seem to insist that all T-34, KV, Divisional guns share the same weak ammunition.
The early T-34 76.2mm weapon, the L11, is another instance of two barrels, from the same gun firing the same ammunition. One could sort of get a simple idea how barrel length effects the velocity.
The 76 mm model 1902/30 should really be the /40 version if they are saying it has the same muzzle velocity as the F-34. I would assume that the USV is the model 38 (39).
The F-22 does not appear here? Strange?
The AA gun should be the model 38 which had that high velocity and different ammunition. I will have to see if the Germans developed their own ammunition for these AA guns.
The Soviets seem to insist that all T-34, KV, Divisional guns share the same weak ammunition.
The early T-34 76.2mm weapon, the L11, is another instance of two barrels, from the same gun firing the same ammunition. One could sort of get a simple idea how barrel length effects the velocity.
RE: Soviet 76.2 mm guns/ammunition thread
And always 655ms or 660m/s.ORIGINAL: Elron Hubbub
The Soviets seem to insist that all T-34, KV, Divisional guns share the same weak ammunition.
Maybe one test is at 0 elevation and one is at Kubinka's 614 ft? This may give as much as 3 m/s difference at the higher elevation.
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RE: Soviet 76.2 mm guns/ammunition thread
From another thread...Discussing the Germans dropping the (r) for weapons like the 7,62 cm Pak 36...
Re: 76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data
Postby Yoozername » 29 Jul 2016 17:12
I suppose that the 'ownership' was considered German after extensive rework and ammunition manufacture. Possibly, this also explains the FK 39 designation for the reworked USV 76.2mm weapon. It also helped changing to 'FK" since Pak 39 refers to the 7,5 cm L48 weapon of the Hetzer and JgdPzr IV.
But, again, I believe the Germans did manufacture its (possessive pronoun) own 'stock' version of the Soviet 76.2 mm ammunition, and also a longer version to use in the reworked Pak 36. I will have to search but there is a side by side picture of the German and Soviet 'stock' ammunition somewhere. Most people are familiar with the German 7.62 cm Pzgr 39 rot used along with the Pak 40 cartridge case.
So...this...
...refers to the standard Soviet ammunition and its German counterpart (what projectile?)...while this...
...actually refers to the German modified Pak 36 with the initial 2.6 Kg of propellant.
This...
...refers to the later cartridge given in Merkblatt 28/1 from April 1944. That is, a reduced charge of 2.45 Kg and this ammunition is common to both the Pak 36 and the FK 39 (aka Pak 39 (r)).
Also, this...
Seems to confirm that both modified guns are using the same ammunition, and also both have a lower velocity than previous tests. The Pak 36 is often quoted as having 740 M/s but later it is 710 M/s.
Re: 76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data
Postby Yoozername » 29 Jul 2016 17:12
I suppose that the 'ownership' was considered German after extensive rework and ammunition manufacture. Possibly, this also explains the FK 39 designation for the reworked USV 76.2mm weapon. It also helped changing to 'FK" since Pak 39 refers to the 7,5 cm L48 weapon of the Hetzer and JgdPzr IV.
But, again, I believe the Germans did manufacture its (possessive pronoun) own 'stock' version of the Soviet 76.2 mm ammunition, and also a longer version to use in the reworked Pak 36. I will have to search but there is a side by side picture of the German and Soviet 'stock' ammunition somewhere. Most people are familiar with the German 7.62 cm Pzgr 39 rot used along with the Pak 40 cartridge case.
So...this...
The first projectiles had the "russisch. Hulse" with a Russian Ladungsaufbau 1.145 Kg of 9/7 CB pulverart, later the German hulse with an Ladungsaufbau 1.312 Kg Digl.Rp.-60.6-(310-3/1) pulverangaben.
...refers to the standard Soviet ammunition and its German counterpart (what projectile?)...while this...
The British Ordnance Board Critical Velocity graph quoted by F.M. von Senger u. Etterlin, with 7.54 Kg wt. and 740 m/s muzzle velocity are for guns captured in Africa with pen of 0 and 30 degrees deflection (vs. BRITISH armor plate) of 133/108 mm at 0 YARDS, and 78/64 mm at 2500 YARDS.
...actually refers to the German modified Pak 36 with the initial 2.6 Kg of propellant.
This...
H.Dv. 119/327 edition dated October 1944:
7.62 cm PzGr 39 rot of 7.6 Kg and 710 m/s MV with velocities at range and official 30 degree deflection performance figures.
100 meters 699 m/s 96 mm pen.
300 meters 678 m/s 92 mm pen.
500 meters 658 m/s 89 mm pen.
1000 meters 607 m/s 80 mm pen.
1500 meters 559 m/s 71 mm pen.
2000 meters 514 m/s 63 mm pen.
2500 meters 472 m/s 55 mm pen.
3000 meters 433 m/s 48 mm pen.
Treffer % firing at 2.5/2 meter target with 50% St. breite/hohe: 100 m 100(100)% .1/.1, 300 m 100(100)% .2/.2, 500 m 100(92)% .3/.4, 1000 m 90(52)% .6/.8, 1500 m 66(25)% 1.0/1.3, 2000 m 42(12)% 1.4/1.8, 2500 m 26(07)% 1.9/2.5, 3000 meters 17(05)% 2.4/3.3.
...refers to the later cartridge given in Merkblatt 28/1 from April 1944. That is, a reduced charge of 2.45 Kg and this ammunition is common to both the Pak 36 and the FK 39 (aka Pak 39 (r)).
Also, this...
TM-E 30-451 (Handbook on German Military Forces (War Department) 1 March 1945:
page VII-35
i. 3-inch Antitank Gun (7.62 cm Pak 39).
(1) General Description. This 3-inch antitank gun is a modified version of the Russian field gun 7.62 cm F.K. 297 (r). the chamber is bored out, and a 7.62 Pak 36 muzzle brake is fitted. The breech mechanism is semiautomatic with a vertical sliding block. The mount has box-type trails and pneumatic tires.
(2) Characteristics.
Caliber 76.2mm (3 inches)
Length of tube 11 feet 5 inches
Weight in Action 3,360 pounds
Muzzle Velocity 2,230 feet per second
Traverse 57 degrees
Elevation -6 deg to +45 deg
Traction Motor-drawn
(3) Ammunition. This gun fires the same ammunition as the 7.62 Pak 36 (r), but has somewhat lower performance.
Seems to confirm that both modified guns are using the same ammunition, and also both have a lower velocity than previous tests. The Pak 36 is often quoted as having 740 M/s but later it is 710 M/s.
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RE: Soviet 76.2 mm guns/ammunition thread
ORIGINAL: Mobius
And always 655ms or 660m/s.ORIGINAL: Elron Hubbub
The Soviets seem to insist that all T-34, KV, Divisional guns share the same weak ammunition.
Maybe one test is at 0 elevation and one is at Kubinka's 614 ft? This may give as much as 3 m/s difference at the higher elevation.
A real test would capture all atmospheric conditions especially ambient temperature. 5 M/s is within 1% of the values being measured. I wonder how accurate the Soviets or anyone's measurements were in WWII.
RE: Soviet 76.2 mm guns/ammunition thread
Ballistics on cannons are usually done per naval guns. The UK and US naval standards is computed at sea level pressure and 59°. An alternate standard I found was at 78°. I don't know if the Germans had this standard. The Soviets not being a naval power probably used Kubinka test results without adjusting them to a naval standard. As to temperature, 59° might be rare for Russia.ORIGINAL: Elron Hubbub
A real test would capture all atmospheric conditions especially ambient temperature. 5 M/s is within 1% of the values being measured. I wonder how accurate the Soviets or anyone's measurements were in WWII.
The US did some ballistic testing and research at the University of New Mexico. Which I think is at Albuquerque, New Mexico. That is ~5,300 ft. I wonder how well that matched Watertown tests.
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RE: Soviet 76.2 mm guns/ammunition thread
The Soviets actually had two 76mm cartridges for this class of guns prewar it seems. One was a 'hot' load. Evidently packing about a third more powder. The longer barreled F-22 would surely get a higher velocity from it.
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RE: Soviet 76.2 mm guns/ammunition thread
Was it a faster or slower burning powder, volumn of powder does not matter that much, if at all. Now if powder is exactly the same in both loads you may have an argument.
RE: Soviet 76.2 mm guns/ammunition thread
If that is from early war there are a number of 76mm guns with less than 41 calibers length that could of been using the shorty.ORIGINAL: Elron Hubbub
The Soviets actually had two 76mm cartridges for this class of guns prewar it seems. One was a 'hot' load. Evidently packing about a third more powder. The longer barreled F-22 would surely get a higher velocity from it.
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RE: Soviet 76.2 mm guns/ammunition thread
Miles Krogfus posted the velocities. I will edit it in. It was a higher velocity. And, yes, the Soviets were concerned about German Monster tanks attacking them. But, after the invasion, and the apparent weak armor on most every German tank, they just made the 'standard' version. Firing the hot one from an L11 barrel would be a sight to see.
The Germans produced their own 350mm case ammunition for the captured Soviet 76mm weapons. It had something like 1.32 Kg of German powder and used a large capacity HE Pzgr 39 (7.1 Kg) that looks very similar to a 88mm APCBC to me. They later produced a small capacity 7,62 cm Pzgr 39 rot (7.6 Kg) that was used in the reworked F-22 and USV guns that took the Pak 40 cartridge 'brass'.
The Germans produced their own 350mm case ammunition for the captured Soviet 76mm weapons. It had something like 1.32 Kg of German powder and used a large capacity HE Pzgr 39 (7.1 Kg) that looks very similar to a 88mm APCBC to me. They later produced a small capacity 7,62 cm Pzgr 39 rot (7.6 Kg) that was used in the reworked F-22 and USV guns that took the Pak 40 cartridge 'brass'.
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RE: Soviet 76.2 mm guns/ammunition thread
H.Dv.119/117 Vorlaufige Schusstafel for the Soviet FK 296(r) May 1942 gives these MV of projectiles with 1080 grams of Russian 9/7 propellant: Sprenggranatpatrone 284 and Stahlgussgranpatrone 287 of 706 m/s, while 1943 H.Dv.119/3121 Vorlaufige Geschutzfuhrertafel for the FK 296(r) und Selbstfabrlafette states 713 m/s.
The 1942 figure for the Russian APBC BR 350 is 687 m/s, the 1943 MV for the model BR 350 A is 698 m/s, using the same 1080 grams amount of 9/7 propellant. No German Pzgr figures given in the 1942 FT.
For 1943: Pzgr Patr 39(r) MV of 660 m/s, Pzgr Patr 39 rot(r) MV of 630 m/s, Pzgr 40(r) of 850 m/s. The Pzgr projectile mentioned earlier, with 1145 grams of 9/7 propellant had on its case:
Fur Tropen!
PT=+25 (degrees) C
It is interesting that the Germans tried both the high capacity HE Pzgr 39 and the low capacity HE Pzgr 39 rot on teh 350mm case. Note the reduced velocities from the only variable being weight.
German hulse with an Ladungsaufbau 1.312 Kg Digl.Rp.-60.6-(310-3/1) pulverangaben
This is the normal weight of propellant. The 'Fur Tropen' weight is 1.145 Kg.