Ki-201 is it worth the wait?

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SheperdN7
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Ki-201 is it worth the wait?

Post by SheperdN7 »

It seems my imagination of the Me-262 rip-off always gets the better of me as I almost always focus a great deal of R&D into it and its turbojet engines ( PDU's "on" fanboy here, never in my life would I have anything to do with a Ki-201 in an "off" game)

My question is- has anyone ever used the Karyu in combat and if so, how did it perform as a bomber-killer and as a air superiority fighter?

I'm also assuming that only the best IJAAF pilots get this airframe, granted by the time it gets produced, Japanese pilots are... Well lets just say they've seen better days[8|]
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RE: Ki-201 is it worth the wait?

Post by xj900uk »

Only one prototype ever made a single successful flight, on August 7th 1945 (I think). A second test-flight was begun a few days later but was aborted due to engine failure at start-up. No further attempts were made and the single operational plane was destroyed soon after (I think a 2nd prototype may have been seen by US personnel in a hanger somewhere but I am not sure).
Overall, I would say don't bother about it. By 1945 you have access to far better planes and in greater numbers, like the Ki-100, the George and the Frank.
A good late bet which you should try to get operational is the A7M Sam. (The final development of the Zero with decent protection and a powerful, 2,000 HP engine) In the end only a handful (I think about 7) of pre-production aircraft were built, one of which may have seen combat. However Saburo Sakai test-flew it in June '45 and declared it to be the best fighter in the Pacific on either side. Afterwards it was test-flown by the US military back home and pitted up against the F4U and P-51D, and everyone agreed that the Sam/Reppu excelled and was superior to the US equivalent especially at high altitude.
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RE: Ki-201 is it worth the wait?

Post by crsutton »

Every thing I see says that it never got out of the development stage and did not fly. What was your source? I may be reading internet crap. The National Air and Space Museum has an intact body of a Ki-201 without engines and missing a lot of other parts. I saw it years ago when you could visit the restoration workship in Silver Hill MD. It was warehoused there with no plans to restore it.
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RE: Ki-201 is it worth the wait?

Post by DanSez »

Late war you really have to worry about Service Level. You can have some squadrons you shuffle around to avoid being bombed to oblivion while they repair, but you will need as many Service Level 1 and 2 units to be there, day after day to absorb the blows.

That would be Ki-43-IV, Ki-44-IIc, Ki-45-KAIc, A6M8, Ki-100-I, Ki-100-II, A7M2, J2M2, N1K2-J, Ki-102a (all Service Level 1 or 2)

You will still need Service Level 3 fighters (Frank and friends), but the ones above are very important in a layered CAP defense. I am not sure, other than playing agains the AI, that investing in Service Level 4/5 fighters are woth the cost other than to satisfy the desire of role-playing (in the OP's case) of getting those jets up in the air to see what they could do.
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RE: Ki-201 is it worth the wait?

Post by rustysi »

+1
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RE: Ki-201 is it worth the wait?

Post by SheperdN7 »

A7M is a fascinating plane but unfortunately by the time it comes available, any semi-competent allied player should have KB in Davy Jones locker, or at the very least have it "post battle of Philippine Sea" (heavily damaged, air groups decimated, etc.)And my only complaint is (and don't get me wrong, I think its a fabulous plane and I agree with Saburo Sakai on his assessment of it but didn't he also say that the A5M CLAUDE was the best plane[&:][&:][&:][X(]) that its meant to be a carrier aircraft, but alas there are no remaining carriers for it :/ yes I could use it in a land base role but is it honestly better than the George (which comes out WAY earlier) at the land based naval fighter role?
Only one prototype ever made a single successful flight, on August 7th 1945 (I think). A second test-flight was begun a few days later but was aborted due to engine failure at start-up. No further attempts were made and the single operational plane was destroyed soon after (I think a 2nd prototype may have been seen by US personnel in a hanger somewhere but I am not sure).

I heard the same thing, not sure where I read it but I know almost 100% that prototypes were built.

The main draw for me with the Ki-201 is the combination of:

Speed (nothing can come close to it that the allies would have in range of the home islands)

Armament- 2 X 20mm cannons and 2 X 30mm cannons.

Armour and durability: 1 armour point and the highest durability rating for ANY Jap fighter (I believe, correct me if I'm wrong)


Isn't the lack of those things the reason the aircraft for Japan late war are sitting ducks for allied aircraft? Pilot training too but that factor is at least up to the player and how he/she sets up their training programs.



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RE: Ki-201 is it worth the wait?

Post by rustysi »

With a SR of 5 its gonna be almost impossible to keep those things in the fray. Looks to me like they're a one shot point defense weapon that then has to be withdrawn for about a week to repair. With the cost of advancing their production date (3/46 is the original), including the engines, I'm not 100% sure it would be worth it. Now realize when I say 'cost of advancing' I'm including that time and effort which is lost in advancing other models that Japan has a pressing need for as well. Look at the big picture.[;)]

The A/C is impressive on paper, but the reality may let you down. Just as it did the Nazis'.
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RE: Ki-201 is it worth the wait?

Post by PaxMondo »

Use SR 4/5 aircraft all the time ... yes it isn't as easy or flexible as SR1 aircraft, but certainly doable. If you can't use them, then you need to practice. Just like the allies and the B29 ... there are certain things you can do with them and certain things you do not want to do. But certainly most competent allied players learn how to use the B29 quite effectively. Ditto IJ players. You need to learn how to use SR4/5 planes. Far too many of the late model planes that are very competitive with the the late model allied fighter are high SR (if for no other reason than they were almost all wet-meth injection engines).

Ki201 ... point defense really for home islands. Generally don't build them as I build the J7W instead and you know i hate to duplicate roles for fighter. J7W almost as fast, same armament, but half the cost (or less, see below).

Instead I might build the Ki83 for long range escort role or the Ki94 Frank II.

Yes, to get the Ki201 into early '45 where it can actually contribute takes a LOT of focus. And since it uses a unique engine, the cost is really, really high as you need to dedicate several precious engine factories as well to it.

EDIT: I did do a game where I skipped Frank and went for the Ki201 instead. '44 was tough with only the Tojo, but when the Ki201 came on line it was the real deal. Stopped 4E's cold. Now, I was fielding +400 in CAP, so I was 1:1 in AC in the air with the allied raids. IIRC I was building 12/day initially.
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RE: Ki-201 is it worth the wait?

Post by rustysi »

I was fielding +400 in CAP,

[X(]

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RE: Ki-201 is it worth the wait?

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Every thing I see says that it never got out of the development stage and did not fly. What was your source? I may be reading internet crap. The National Air and Space Museum has an intact body of a Ki-201 without engines and missing a lot of other parts. I saw it years ago when you could visit the restoration workship in Silver Hill MD. It was warehoused there with no plans to restore it.

They moved it to the restoration facility at Udvar-Hazy as I've seen it from the observation deck, but last time I was there they were not working on it.
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RE: Ki-201 is it worth the wait?

Post by PaxMondo »

ORIGINAL: rustysi
I was fielding +400 in CAP,

[X(]

Remember, I was building 12/day initially, so like 100 days or so after they became available they went operational. It does take time for those initial air groups to be built and then repair. Once you get the process going though, it is like the allied deathstar ...

However, it only works if your economy is pretty intact when you are able to field them. I got them operational in a "test" game in early '45 with a clear plan to do so and with real effort. If the allied 4E's have already decimated a significant portion of your economy ...

And of course, they are not special as a night fighter. You've got to be able to protect against low level night bombing which is just frightfully effective. In a 'real' game as opposed a 'test' game, this is why I rarely ever go for Ki201 ... the need for strong night fighter is overwhelmingly more important. There aren't any HR's in an AI game and "Andy AI" (nefarious opponent that he is) will almost always eventually settle upon 2000 - 5000 ft 4E night bombing as its primary 4E tactic. A lot of HR's limit this simply because it is so powerful.
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RE: Ki-201 is it worth the wait?

Post by xj900uk »

Personally, I believe that in RL, the Ki-201 would have been a complete botch-up and waste of time of dwindling resources, as it was for the IJAAF and IJNAF. Please remember that their previous attempts to produce and develop an in-line engine fighter, the Ki-61 'Tony', even when they had full blueprints and also two Daimler Benz engines to work from (exported via submarine from Germany) and they could still not produce a reliable properly built equivalent, or service it. A pity as the Tony, if it had ever been fully realised with a properly working and reliable inline DB engine, would have been very successful - as it was, it was the first (and, I think, only) early-generation Japanese fighter to carry any form of armour plate or protection, as the more powerful and streamlined DB-licenced engine allowed it to do, despite it being the last of the 'first generation' of WWII Japanese fighters.
That was the mess the Japanese made when they had two working models fo engines and proper blue prints. Amazing how they managed to get as far with the Ki-201 as they did, when they had nothing more than a few photographs of the Me262 including its engines and not much else to go on, as the submarine from Germany that was supposed to be carrying proper plans got lost and never arrived.

Re the test-flight, it is listed down in one of my reference books upstairs. However there is not much to go on. Also it refers to the Najajima J9Y Kikka and the Ki-201, my mistake. Both were virtually identical to the Me262 alhtouhg the Kikka was slightly smaller.
The entry is as follows : '1 flyable prototype. First flight of roughly 17 minutes carried out 7th August 1945 at the Kisarazu Naval Base, undercarriage not retracted. Second test-flight of 11th August aborted due to rocket-booster failure during take-off run. Prototype destroyed by engineers approx. date 15th August 1945. Second prototype under construction at the time of Japan's surrender, seized and examined by US air-technicians but not completed. Believed broken up by early 1946 in US.'
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RE: Ki-201 is it worth the wait?

Post by crsutton »

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Use SR 4/5 aircraft all the time ... yes it isn't as easy or flexible as SR1 aircraft, but certainly doable. If you can't use them, then you need to practice. Just like the allies and the B29 ... there are certain things you can do with them and certain things you do not want to do. But certainly most competent allied players learn how to use the B29 quite effectively. Ditto IJ players. You need to learn how to use SR4/5 planes. Far too many of the late model planes that are very competitive with the the late model allied fighter are high SR (if for no other reason than they were almost all wet-meth injection engines).

Ki201 ... point defense really for home islands. Generally don't build them as I build the J7W instead and you know i hate to duplicate roles for fighter. J7W almost as fast, same armament, but half the cost (or less, see below).

Instead I might build the Ki83 for long range escort role or the Ki94 Frank II.

Yes, to get the Ki201 into early '45 where it can actually contribute takes a LOT of focus. And since it uses a unique engine, the cost is really, really high as you need to dedicate several precious engine factories as well to it.

EDIT: I did do a game where I skipped Frank and went for the Ki201 instead. '44 was tough with only the Tojo, but when the Ki201 came on line it was the real deal. Stopped 4E's cold. Now, I was fielding +400 in CAP, so I was 1:1 in AC in the air with the allied raids. IIRC I was building 12/day initially.

Pax, is this vs the AI or versus a human opponent? I am pretty confident as an Allied player that I can hunt high service planes down and hold them on the ground. Allies just have way to many bombers. I tried to use the early P38 with its service rating of 4 as a front line fighter but found it to be useless vs a good opponent. In a real late war situation with the Allies threatening the HI, the Japanese player needs aircraft that he can put up in the air fast. Not that it will help him much. [;)]
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RE: Ki-201 is it worth the wait?

Post by Lowpe »

Pax only plays the AI, so there is your answer.

The question really revolves around AI vs PBEM. So few pbem games get to Jan 45...for whatever reasons.

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RE: Ki-201 is it worth the wait?

Post by SheperdN7 »

I am more so talking about pbem games, the service rating REALLY hurts the Karyu's potential, but how I see it is- if a IJ player can have a good number of service 1 or 2 fighters that can cover the airfields while the Ki-201 gets serviced, wouldn't that fix the problem? Assuming of course that there is little fighter escort.
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RE: Ki-201 is it worth the wait?

Post by SheperdN7 »

And Pax, 400+ a day is VERY impressive [&o]
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RE: Ki-201 is it worth the wait?

Post by SheperdN7 »

And of course, they are not special as a night fighter. You've got to be able to protect against low level night bombing which is just frightfully effective.

I always liked the specs of the S1A1 Denko for that role...
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RE: Ki-201 is it worth the wait?

Post by wdolson »

ORIGINAL: xj900uk

Personally, I believe that in RL, the Ki-201 would have been a complete botch-up and waste of time of dwindling resources, as it was for the IJAAF and IJNAF. Please remember that their previous attempts to produce and develop an in-line engine fighter, the Ki-61 'Tony', even when they had full blueprints and also two Daimler Benz engines to work from (exported via submarine from Germany) and they could still not produce a reliable properly built equivalent, or service it. A pity as the Tony, if it had ever been fully realised with a properly working and reliable inline DB engine, would have been very successful - as it was, it was the first (and, I think, only) early-generation Japanese fighter to carry any form of armour plate or protection, as the more powerful and streamlined DB-licenced engine allowed it to do, despite it being the last of the 'first generation' of WWII Japanese fighters.
That was the mess the Japanese made when they had two working models fo engines and proper blue prints. Amazing how they managed to get as far with the Ki-201 as they did, when they had nothing more than a few photographs of the Me262 including its engines and not much else to go on, as the submarine from Germany that was supposed to be carrying proper plans got lost and never arrived.

Re the test-flight, it is listed down in one of my reference books upstairs. However there is not much to go on. Also it refers to the Najajima J9Y Kikka and the Ki-201, my mistake. Both were virtually identical to the Me262 alhtouhg the Kikka was slightly smaller.
The entry is as follows : '1 flyable prototype. First flight of roughly 17 minutes carried out 7th August 1945 at the Kisarazu Naval Base, undercarriage not retracted. Second test-flight of 11th August aborted due to rocket-booster failure during take-off run. Prototype destroyed by engineers approx. date 15th August 1945. Second prototype under construction at the time of Japan's surrender, seized and examined by US air-technicians but not completed. Believed broken up by early 1946 in US.'

When I was a kid Planes of Fame in Chino had a complete Kikka. It now belongs to the Smithsonian. I believe it had been test flown after the war. The Me-262 had a wingspan of 41 1/2 ft and the Kikka had a wingspan of 32 ft 10 in. So the Kikka was significantly smaller.

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RE: Ki-201 is it worth the wait?

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: wdolson

ORIGINAL: xj900uk

Personally, I believe that in RL, the Ki-201 would have been a complete botch-up and waste of time of dwindling resources, as it was for the IJAAF and IJNAF. Please remember that their previous attempts to produce and develop an in-line engine fighter, the Ki-61 'Tony', even when they had full blueprints and also two Daimler Benz engines to work from (exported via submarine from Germany) and they could still not produce a reliable properly built equivalent, or service it. A pity as the Tony, if it had ever been fully realised with a properly working and reliable inline DB engine, would have been very successful - as it was, it was the first (and, I think, only) early-generation Japanese fighter to carry any form of armour plate or protection, as the more powerful and streamlined DB-licenced engine allowed it to do, despite it being the last of the 'first generation' of WWII Japanese fighters.
That was the mess the Japanese made when they had two working models fo engines and proper blue prints. Amazing how they managed to get as far with the Ki-201 as they did, when they had nothing more than a few photographs of the Me262 including its engines and not much else to go on, as the submarine from Germany that was supposed to be carrying proper plans got lost and never arrived.

Re the test-flight, it is listed down in one of my reference books upstairs. However there is not much to go on. Also it refers to the Najajima J9Y Kikka and the Ki-201, my mistake. Both were virtually identical to the Me262 alhtouhg the Kikka was slightly smaller.
The entry is as follows : '1 flyable prototype. First flight of roughly 17 minutes carried out 7th August 1945 at the Kisarazu Naval Base, undercarriage not retracted. Second test-flight of 11th August aborted due to rocket-booster failure during take-off run. Prototype destroyed by engineers approx. date 15th August 1945. Second prototype under construction at the time of Japan's surrender, seized and examined by US air-technicians but not completed. Believed broken up by early 1946 in US.'

When I was a kid Planes of Fame in Chino had a complete Kikka. It now belongs to the Smithsonian. I believe it had been test flown after the war. The Me-262 had a wingspan of 41 1/2 ft and the Kikka had a wingspan of 32 ft 10 in. So the Kikka was significantly smaller.

Bill

Oh, and Air and Space has an Me-262. Just imagine different insignia on there and there's your Ki-201! [:'(]
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RE: Ki-201 is it worth the wait?

Post by PaxMondo »

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Pax, is this vs the AI or versus a human opponent? I am pretty confident as an Allied player that I can hunt high service planes down and hold them on the ground. Allies just have way to many bombers. I tried to use the early P38 with its service rating of 4 as a front line fighter but found it to be useless vs a good opponent. In a real late war situation with the Allies threatening the HI, the Japanese player needs aircraft that he can put up in the air fast. Not that it will help him much. [;)]
The current common thinking is that high SR fighters can't work. As usual, I take the counter current on that. High SR fighters can work fine, you just have to apply the same lessons learned in using 4E's ... it has nothing to with PBEM or AI.

Can you use SR5 fighters like SR1? Heck no. Can you establish solid defense using SR5 fighters? The answer is as simple as "Can you use SR5 4E's on offense?". If you say yes to the 4E question, you have just answered the fighter question. All the same principles apply.

My observation is that most IJ players get used to the SR1 fighters from the early war and fail to adapt to the SR5. The SR jump tends to happen all of sudden and they don't make the change in habits ...

Anyway, several AAR's show players using high SR fighters just fine. Look for those using the Ki83 and the Ki94 .. been a few.
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