Soviet infantry

[Icier]

Does the game have a limiter on the size Russian infantry division & does it vary with Guard status?
I was under the impression that 12000men was the regulated size excluding SU for WW2.

[chaos45]

yes the ToE of soviet infantry divisions changes over time.

I believe the guards also have a slightly different ToE than normal rifle divisions.

[Michael T]

Historically Soviet ID fluctuated around 6-8K (well below TOE). But no Soviet players want an historical OOB. Hopefully W2 will be different. You never hear the RFC complain about overblown Soviet units, but if some poor German manages to keep some Panzer Divisions at full TOE post 43, you hear the RFC screaming for miles... [8|]

[Icier]

Wish now I had taken a screen shot....August 42..panzers attack single guard infantry div & bounced.Checked combat, the strength of the unit was 20100, didn't have any SU support.Imagine what it would be like with support, especially a few sapper units!

[chaos45]

Mike- the problem is inflated OOB helps the Germans more than Soviets in 41/42 since the combat effectiveness of each German extra is double to triple that of each Soviet due to NM/experience levels.

Both sides have inflated OOBs again a beat horse for years now nothing new to see.

WITE 2 has a steep road to climb to get to truly historical performance IMO. As Casualty rates will have to go up alot for both sides yet the game engine/replacement system be able to keep both sides in the war for the duration.

Soviet attacks losing 10k men in 41/42 shouldnt be uncommon if/when they attack, and even on defense the losses should easily be in the thousands per combat for Soviets...however they need to add in a historical soviet replacement system to make up how much more extreme losses should be.

On the flip side of the coin the battles were the Germans only lose 1-2 companies to win against a soviet division or two in 1942 have to change and German attacks even in victory need to have a slow wearing down effect on their formations due to lack of available replacements.

IMO Moreaval did a good job on getting losses closer to being more accurate for WITE 1 esp when you consider the replacement system in place and that it isnt built/unable to handle real loss rates.

You and Pelton with the red fan club is pretty funny....as when players who know the German side of the system play they do extremely well in 1941/42--typically better than historical. Do I feel the Germans require more skill- yes, do I feel the game is to far in favor of the Soviets- at this point I really dont think so....as players skilled at playing the Germans again are doing far better in 41/42 than historical. An this is even against some veteran Soviet players.....

As I stated in a post some time ago---the game is almost to good for Germans in 41/42 if the player is experienced, but then again its almost to good for the Soviets 43-on if they survive that long.

Again tho the German side has an extreme learning/practice curve---but then again against a skilled German player the Soviet player needs to know what they are doing or they will lose 41/42---seen it in alot of AARs.

Also its doenst seem many games even go into 1943+....so I think Defensive play by the Germans in the late game especially with all the changes hasnt been really tested at all. A skilled German defense 43+ could very well make the game a draw esp if they hurt the Soviets enough 41/42....as in recent games Soviet attacking losses in the late game seem to have increased alot.

Just my 2 cents...life is pretty busy for me at the moment but been thinking of seriously trying another game with all the changes once life slows down some.

[Michael T]

Mike- the problem is inflated OOB helps the Germans more than Soviets in 41/42 since the combat effectiveness of each German extra is double to triple that of each Soviet due to NM/experience levels.

This would have to be the most ludicrous thing I have ever read on this forum.

The very thing that makes it possible for the Reds to build impenetrable fortified lines is an army of 11K divisions with 45+ morale.

But this is not what the OP is even talking about. As usual members of the RFC muddy the water with unrelated issues.

The topic is the size of Soviet ID. It is a *fact* the Soviets did not field 100% TOE ID's at all, at any period in 41/42. But it's the norm in WITE. The Soviet OOB is completely fanciful.

Strange how the RFC like fanciful OOB's in an historical simulation. Yet scream blue murder when someone suggests that stretching a supply line a little further in a different direction might have been feasible. That's the funniest thing of all. The RFC double standards and hypocrisy that is unending.

RFC club rule number one. Ignore any fact that could potentially weaken the Soviet Army.

[Michael T]

Whenever you want to play a game as you German and me Soviet give me a yell.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Mike- the problem is inflated OOB helps the Germans more than Soviets in 41/42 since the combat effectiveness of each German extra is double to triple that of each Soviet due to NM/experience levels.

This would have to be the most ludicrous thing I have ever read on this forum.

The very thing that makes it possible for the Reds to build impenetrable fortified lines is an army of 11K divisions with 45+ morale.

But this is not what the OP is even talking about. As usual members of the RFC muddy the water with unrelated issues.

The topic is the size of Soviet ID. It is a *fact* the Soviets did not field 100% TOE ID's at all, at any period in 41/42. But it's the norm in WITE. The Soviet OOB is completely fanciful.

Strange how the RFC like fanciful OOB's in an historical simulation. Yet scream blue murder when someone suggests that stretching a supply line a little further in a different direction might have been feasible. That's the funniest thing of all. The RFC double standards and hypocrisy that is unending.

RFC club rule number one. Ignore any fact that could potentially weaken the Soviet Army.

As per historical articles I have posted which were form government intel not some book of lies.

Russians fielded new divisions at 80% ToE with only 1/2 the trucks required.

Old units were at 40-60% toe with 60% being around max. Yes if we want to cherry pick we can find a few units with higher toe, but over all most were under toe and lacked transport.

I don't have and issue with current combat system as morveal got it as good as its going to get, its the logistics systems of 1.0 and witW.

Russian logistics system was poor piss poor compaired to WA's and Germany, but yet we have a one size fits all system.

[Aditia]

I just finished David Stahel's book on Barbarossa which very convincingly argues based on records from OKH, that it was the German logistics system that was completely inadequate at the start of Operation Barbarossa, and that in fact AGC was being bled dry during the battle for Smolensk and most units were not even able to retaliate due to absence of ammunition for artillery.

It got so bad that individual Corps were sending their own trucks all the way back to East Prussia (!) to fetch supplies themselves..

I highly doubt that this forum war that occurs in almost every thread is in any way contributing to the development of WITE2... It is also quite boring.

[RedLancer]

ORIGINAL: Aditia

I highly doubt that this forum war that occurs in almost every thread is in any way contributing to the development of WITE2... It is also quite boring.

You're right on both.

[zakblood]

agreed, and it takes up time that could be spent elsewhere instead of having to read every thread and post, rather time consuming and a waste of time and resources that could be spent elsewhere[:(][&:]

[sillyflower]

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Mike- the problem is inflated OOB helps the Germans more than Soviets in 41/42 since the combat effectiveness of each German extra is double to triple that of each Soviet due to NM/experience levels.

This would have to be the most ludicrous thing I have ever read on this forum.

Sorry Michael but your response is more ludicrous than the post that you are commenting on [:-]. There has been some really choice nonsense written on this forum, some possibly by me, and I wouldn't put Chaos post in that category even though I don't really agree with his logic.

Both sides normally have inflated OOBs by the winter of '41 and grossly so in'42. Compare GC '41 strengths in '42 with the stating OOBs in GC '42. This probably isn't as much of a problem as Chaos suggests because if the balance of power is not affected greatly if both sides are over-strength by the same percentage. Gross numbers have a part to play obviously but within limits won't make as much difference as 1 side being disproportionately over-strength.

For the lovers of numbers of German operational tank strengths on the Eastern front in the first days of the month in 42 were:

Jan 300 ] about a tenth of
Feb 340 ] typical WiTE strength
March 643
April 736
May 1.167

Russians had about 2K operational tanks facing the axis at the beginning of Jan '42. ? 40-50% typical WiTE number

Source of numbers: Tank Warfare on the Eastern Front by Robert Forczyk. An excellent book that examines how and why the Red armour beat the panzers, rather than being a campaign narrative.

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: Aditia

I just finished David Stahel's book on Barbarossa which very convincingly argues based on records from OKH, that it was the German logistics system that was completely inadequate at the start of Operation Barbarossa, and that in fact AGC was being bled dry during the battle for Smolensk and most units were not even able to retaliate due to absence of ammunition for artillery.

It got so bad that individual Corps were sending their own trucks all the way back to East Prussia (!) to fetch supplies themselves..

I highly doubt that this forum war that occurs in almost every thread is in any way contributing to the development of WITE2... It is also quite boring.

I haven't finished it yet, But I agree with you. (Haven't finished When Titans Clash, revised and extended either. But that is worth the read as well.)

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

ORIGINAL: Aditia

I highly doubt that this forum war that occurs in almost every thread is in any way contributing to the development of WITE2... It is also quite boring.

You're right on both.

Yep.

[morvael]

Read all the books from the series. Kiev, Typhoon and Moscow. All are great.

[Michael T]

The problem with this forum is that whenever someone makes any comment or states a fact that weakens the Soviet position the RFC members come out and go on a rant about other unrelated material. Sometimes even spreading misinformation. It's been going on for years. I will not tolerate it any longer.

Look at what the OP wrote. I responded in a factual manner about the subject. Then Chaos went on about a bunch of stuff not related to what the OP asked about.

So I counter that and call it what it is. BS.

This is the pattern.

The RFC try to dominate any thread that puts the Soviet cause in a bad light.

Why is it ok for the RFC to muddy the water with unrelated crap every time?

Is doesn't matter what a OP states. The RFC will throw the same unrelated material over and over. Every thread is the same.

I could start a thread on how Soviet Tank reliability should be lowered. The RFC would then eventually throw a logistics argument that German Tank reliability is too high. And so it would go.

If the RFC could stick to the OP's original topic then this forum will improve. But they simply can't do that.

[Michael T]

I just finished David Stahel's book on Barbarossa which very convincingly argues based on records from OKH, that it was the German logistics system that was completely inadequate at the start of Operation Barbarossa, and that in fact AGC was being bled dry during the battle for Smolensk and most units were not even able to retaliate due to absence of ammunition for artillery.

How does this relate to the OP?

Anyone?

[Michael T]

Mike- the problem is inflated OOB helps the Germans more than Soviets in 41/42 since the combat effectiveness of each German extra is double to triple that of each Soviet due to NM/experience levels.

Both sides have inflated OOBs again a beat horse for years now nothing new to see.

WITE 2 has a steep road to climb to get to truly historical performance IMO. As Casualty rates will have to go up alot for both sides yet the game engine/replacement system be able to keep both sides in the war for the duration.

Soviet attacks losing 10k men in 41/42 shouldnt be uncommon if/when they attack, and even on defense the losses should easily be in the thousands per combat for Soviets...however they need to add in a historical soviet replacement system to make up how much more extreme losses should be.

On the flip side of the coin the battles were the Germans only lose 1-2 companies to win against a soviet division or two in 1942 have to change and German attacks even in victory need to have a slow wearing down effect on their formations due to lack of available replacements.

IMO Moreaval did a good job on getting losses closer to being more accurate for WITE 1 esp when you consider the replacement system in place and that it isnt built/unable to handle real loss rates.

You and Pelton with the red fan club is pretty funny....as when players who know the German side of the system play they do extremely well in 1941/42--typically better than historical. Do I feel the Germans require more skill- yes, do I feel the game is to far in favor of the Soviets- at this point I really dont think so....as players skilled at playing the Germans again are doing far better in 41/42 than historical. An this is even against some veteran Soviet players.....

As I stated in a post some time ago---the game is almost to good for Germans in 41/42 if the player is experienced, but then again its almost to good for the Soviets 43-on if they survive that long.

Again tho the German side has an extreme learning/practice curve---but then again against a skilled German player the Soviet player needs to know what they are doing or they will lose 41/42---seen it in alot of AARs.

Also its doenst seem many games even go into 1943+....so I think Defensive play by the Germans in the late game especially with all the changes hasnt been really tested at all. A skilled German defense 43+ could very well make the game a draw esp if they hurt the Soviets enough 41/42....as in recent games Soviet attacking losses in the late game seem to have increased alot.

And how does any of this relate to the OP?

[Michael T]

Both sides normally have inflated OOBs by the winter of '41 and grossly so in'42. Compare GC '41 strengths in '42 with the stating OOBs in GC '42. This probably isn't as much of a problem as Chaos suggests because if the balance of power is not affected greatly if both sides are over-strength by the same percentage. Gross numbers have a part to play obviously but within limits won't make as much difference as 1 side being disproportionately over-strength.

For the lovers of numbers of German operational tank strengths on the Eastern front in the first days of the month in 42 were:

Jan 300 ] about a tenth of
Feb 340 ] typical WiTE strength
March 643
April 736
May 1.167

Russians had about 2K operational tanks facing the axis at the beginning of Jan '42. ? 40-50% typical WiTE number

Source of numbers: Tank Warfare on the Eastern Front by Robert Forczyk. An excellent book that examines how and why the Red armour beat the panzers, rather than being a campaign narrative.

Again, does not relate.

Guy's, stick to the OP's questions or topic and things will get a whole lot better real quick.

Simple.

If you want to talk about German logistical problems, go start a thread on it. Don't keep on bringing it up over and over again in every other thread.

[Icier]

Michael is right, the majority of posts do not relate to my original question....I wanted to know whether there is a limiter on the size
of Russian division and this question has nothing to do with a possible future WITE2.
I play WITE & was wondering if there was bug that allowed soviet divisions to keep growing, cause 20000 men is usually the figure for Russian corps not division & if there is no limiter & the Russian player is smart enough to keep a fair few as reserves till late 42/early 43 what would be there size then!
Add in SU's & they could beat the crap out of any German Panzer Army!
Red Lancer instead of that quirky post, you could have answered my original post & stopped all of this from going on!