Books NOT Recommended

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition

wdolson
Posts: 7648
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 9:56 pm
Location: Near Portland, OR

RE: Books NOT Recommended

Post by wdolson »


I picked up a Kindle book called "Other Views of Naval Battles" on Amazon a while back. It may have been the bad translation into English, but it was completely unreadable. I read 5-10 pages and realized I had no clue what I just read. I just couldn't continue at that point. The poorly phrased title should have been a clue.

Bill
WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer
Image
User avatar
warspite1
Posts: 41896
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:06 pm
Location: England

RE: Books NOT Recommended

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: fcooke

The second I would call out is 'Jutland - the unfinished battle'. I should have known better as it is written by Nicholas Jellicoe. I was hoping for insight, but it is just apologetic nonsense and fairly severe Beatty bashing (I don't really blame him for crappy BC design).
warspite1

Just goes to show how opinions can vary. This opinion of Jutland The Unfinished Battle is imo about as wrong as it's possible to be. Here is my review of this book. I will gladly debate with anyone the idea that Beatty was anything other than a serious liability and totally unfit to command the Battlecruiser Fleet (BCF). His handling of the BCF was a total and utter disgrace.

Review 4 (out of 5) stars

With the 100th anniversary of the Battle of Jutland approaching I was keen to read another account of the battle. I was drawn to this book as it was written by Nicholas Jellicoe, the grandson of the British Commander in Chief of The Grand Fleet at the time of the battle, and had a good review from Robert Massie (of Castles of Steel fame).

The story of the battle and how it panned out is frustrating and sad in equal measure, but I have to say this was an enjoyable read and the positives far outweigh the negatives. So what were these?

The negatives

The main complaint I have with this book is the lack of diagrams and drawings that allow the reader to properly understand what was happening at various times. To many (most?) of us I would imagine that being able to understand what is happening through the use of nautical terms is not a gift we possess. Note: this book is far from being an outlier in this regard. Indeed it is rare that a book on any military campaign provides the reader with sufficient information. Particularly annoying when a passage makes mention of somewhere that was not even identified on the all too few maps and diagrams in the first place! But I digress.

The second issue is that I bought the book as I wanted to see Jutland from another perspective – but the book started with mini biographies of Fisher and Tirpitz in a kind of Bullock’s Hitler and Stalin Parallel Lives type fashion. Do not get me wrong, the information was interesting to someone who knows relatively little about these key characters, and I would have expected something on these individuals given their contribution to the fleets that fought the battle, but I felt that there was too much that was irrelevant to the story of Jutland. There was also a large section on the subsequent submarine campaign – and Jellicoe’s role, as First Sea Lord, in trying to defeat it. Again very interesting in its own right, but not what I bought the book for.

The final complaint is that there was some repetition, as well as some grammatical and the odd factual mistake and also, in a few places, some points/sentences that seemed out of place in terms of what was being described/discussed. Thankfully these were rare.

The positives

All that said, I have to say that the above did not spoil the book for me and the book was written in an easy-to-read style that made the book a pleasure and not a chore (a lack of maps and diagrams notwithstanding!).

I suspect the title refers to the battle that is still raging over who was to blame for Jutland not being another Trafalgar and which side actually won the battle? It is clear that the author is trying to set the record straight with regard to the poor press that Jellicoe has received, both at the time and in the years subsequently, but I have to say he does this in a measured, even-handed way and is not slow to criticise his grandfather where he thinks it necessary and appropriate. The German performance is also put into perspective and both failings and successes, good decisions and bad, are acknowledged.

The book contains brief but interesting bios of the four leading Admirals during the battle: Jellicoe, Scheer, Beatty and Hipper, allowing the reader access to the background of each and the route they took to be where they were on 31st May 1916.

I do not want to put in any spoilers for those who do not know much about the battle, what took place and how it ends, but the book brings out the many, many failings of the British – from the Admiralty, through all levels down – that contributed to the failure of The Grand Fleet, with such a material advantage, to annihilate their German contemporaries. Of course every story has two sides and there is more than one way of looking at most things in life. What is interesting is that despite these many failings, it is clear that Admiral Scheer was, even then, incredibly lucky to get his fleet home – and Hipper even luckier.

Conclusion

I have my own views on the extent to which Admiral Jellicoe was "at fault" for what happened on 31st May-1st June 1916. What is clear is that he was incredibly let down by certain subordinates and others. One intriguing question though is, to what extent he, as Commander in Chief, was responsible for, or at least contributed to, his subordinates failings? There is much here to ponder over.

Was this book worth the cost? Absolutely.
Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
User avatar
geofflambert
Posts: 14887
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2010 2:18 pm
Location: St. Louis

RE: Books NOT Recommended

Post by geofflambert »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: fcooke

The second I would call out is 'Jutland - the unfinished battle'. I should have known better as it is written by Nicholas Jellicoe. I was hoping for insight, but it is just apologetic nonsense and fairly severe Beatty bashing (I don't really blame him for crappy BC design).
warspite1
Conclusion

I have my own views on the extent to which Admiral Jellicoe was "at fault" for what happened on 31st May-1st June 1916. What is clear is that he was incredibly let down by certain subordinates and others. One intriguing question though is, to what extent he, as Commander in Chief, was responsible for, or at least contributed to, his subordinates failings? There is much here to ponder over.

Was this book worth the cost? Absolutely.

You are in the wrong thread for that warspite1

User avatar
warspite1
Posts: 41896
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:06 pm
Location: England

RE: Books NOT Recommended

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: fcooke

(I don't really blame him for crappy BC design).
warspite1

What was crappy about it? The ships were:

a) not used as designed (they showed what they could do at the Falkland Islands)
b) not operated with an appropriate magazine and cordite handling process

The former may be blamed (perhaps unfairly) on Beatty but the latter? In no way shape or form can Beatty be excused for that one.....[:@]

The design was fine. Note how the German ships did not blow up but the RN vessels did. A recent study at Southampton university hit a mock up of the Queen Mary with exactly the same number of hits (and in the same places) that Seydlitz took (the Germans catalogued and photographed all hits on their captial ships) Guess what? Yep, the Queen Mary, like the Seydlitz, survives. Of course in real life the magazine and cordite handling procedures - sanctioned by Beatty - ensured that Queen Mary did not survive that long...... [:(]
Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
User avatar
rustysi
Posts: 7472
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:23 am
Location: LI, NY

RE: Books NOT Recommended

Post by rustysi »

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Mein Kampf by A. Hitler.

I tried to read it years ago out of general interest (I generally have no interest to Nazi ideology)....and it is just horrible writing style. I had to stop after about 50 pages. It has no coherence (no surprises there).

I totally hear and agree with everything you've said, but I just have to read this book no matter how much I may have to force myself to do it. The one one thing I'm hoping to get out of it is that ah-ha moment where I can say, oh you guys (back then) had to read this.

So that being said I know the copyright has expired on it this year, and that there are many translations and editions of the book. So can anyone recommend one that is 'best' as far as being the real deal.
It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb
User avatar
geofflambert
Posts: 14887
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2010 2:18 pm
Location: St. Louis

RE: Books NOT Recommended

Post by geofflambert »

I'm looking at The Proud Tower, Conquering Tides and The Pacific Crucible. Any objections?

User avatar
CaptBeefheart
Posts: 2513
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2003 2:42 am
Location: Seoul, Korea

RE: Books NOT Recommended

Post by CaptBeefheart »

ORIGINAL: bushpsu

Commander Cody - Try The Burma Campaign, by Frank McLynn. This is in my top 5 books for ANY topic of WW 2.

Thanks! I'll give that a shot.

Cheers,
CC
Beer, because barley makes lousy bread.
User avatar
warspite1
Posts: 41896
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:06 pm
Location: England

RE: Books NOT Recommended

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I'm looking at The Proud Tower, Conquering Tides and The Pacific Crucible. Any objections?
warspite1

I object your honour.
Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Bearcat2
Posts: 578
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2004 12:53 pm

RE: Books NOT Recommended

Post by Bearcat2 »

ORIGINAL: jmalter

I really like Tuchman's books, and her 'Stillwell and the American Experience in China' is my favorite. Her writing is high-quality, equal to & sometimes better than David McCullough's work.

George Macdonald Fraser (author of the Flashman series) wrote a memoir of his infantry-officer experiences during the Burma campaign, 'Quartered Safe Out Here'. I've not read QSOH, but will reccomend it, based on my appreciation of Flashy. Expect absurdity.


I read 'Quartered Safe Out Here'; if you ever served in an army; I highly recommend it.
"After eight years as President I have only two regrets: that I have not shot Henry Clay or hanged John C. Calhoun."--1837
User avatar
Dixie
Posts: 10303
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 3:14 pm
Location: UK

RE: Books NOT Recommended

Post by Dixie »

ORIGINAL: Termite2

ORIGINAL: jmalter

I really like Tuchman's books, and her 'Stillwell and the American Experience in China' is my favorite. Her writing is high-quality, equal to & sometimes better than David McCullough's work.

George Macdonald Fraser (author of the Flashman series) wrote a memoir of his infantry-officer experiences during the Burma campaign, 'Quartered Safe Out Here'. I've not read QSOH, but will reccomend it, based on my appreciation of Flashy. Expect absurdity.


I read 'Quartered Safe Out Here'; if you ever served in an army; I highly recommend it.

I'll add my recommendation to that. It's definitely worth a read.
[center]Image

Bigger boys stole my sig
anarchyintheuk
Posts: 3946
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 7:08 pm
Location: Dallas

RE: Books NOT Recommended

Post by anarchyintheuk »

ORIGINAL: warspite1
ORIGINAL: fcooke

(I don't really blame him for crappy BC design).
warspite1

What was crappy about it? The ships were:

a) not used as designed (they showed what they could do at the Falkland Islands)
b) not operated with an appropriate magazine and cordite handling process

The former may be blamed (perhaps unfairly) on Beatty but the latter? In no way shape or form can Beatty be excused for that one.....[:@]

The design was fine. Note how the German ships did not blow up but the RN vessels did. A recent study at Southampton university hit a mock up of the Queen Mary with exactly the same number of hits (and in the same places) that Seydlitz took (the Germans catalogued and photographed all hits on their captial ships) Guess what? Yep, the Queen Mary, like the Seydlitz, survives. Of course in real life the magazine and cordite handling procedures - sanctioned by Beatty - ensured that Queen Mary did not survive that long...... [:(]

Not a Jutland expert, but I thought that the handling procedure issues were endemic throughout the RN not just limited to the BC squadron.
User avatar
mussey
Posts: 682
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:21 pm
Location: Cleve-Land

RE: Books NOT Recommended

Post by mussey »

ORIGINAL: warspite1
ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Good day All.

We always have threads running on books to read. People here provide fantastic direction of books concerning research, battles, and biographies but rarely do we talk about books NOT to read.

I have encountered such a work. After thoroughly enjoying the recommendations on "The Hunters" and "The Hunted," I ran into a terrible book. Just read through John Clancy's 'The Most Dangerous Moment of the War': Japan's Attack on the Indian Ocean, 1942. The book felt like it had great possibilities with the topic. Have always felt that the Indian Ocean raid is a GREAT topic for a new work.

Reading the book was terribly disappointing. The book was horrifically repetitive, not very well edited, and rather boring to read. It is a complete thumbs down on my part.

Has anyone read anything else recently that fits this description as a 'don't spend your money on this?'
warspite1

Well to be fair I think the title kind of gives away the experience you subsequently had.

How in the name of Bonaparte's balls could the opportunistic, 'hit and run' Indian Ocean Raid possibly be described as the most dangerous moment of the war??
I am fascinated to know what the author's justification for such a title is though!

Good thread subject - I have read a few stinkers in my time.....

- Neptune's Inferno (Hornfischer) - see below

- The Road to Stalingrad (Erikson) - I may have been too young/inexperienced to appreciate this book - or maybe it really was as poorly written as I remember. Like Hornfischer with Neptune's Inferno, Erickson's sentences are just impenetrable. Could be accurate, could be inaccurate - I have no idea because I didn't understand what he was talking about.....

- Destroyer Down (Evans) - supposedly a book about Royal Navy destroyer losses in World War II. Okay....there is actually a chapter on the loss of HMS Bison. You know, Bison...the French destroyer..... Appalling.

- Soviet Naval Operations in the Great Patriotic War (Achkasov/Pavlovich) - this is effectively a (large) Soviet propaganda leaflet complete with not mentioning Soviet ships that were sunk and the Soviets shooting down all 50 of the attacking German aircraft (despite only being attacked by 12). History? No, not even close.

- The Solomons Campaigns 1942-43 (McGee) - the first part of this book is simply extracts from Morison. Yes that's right extracts. I mean seriously what is the point of that?

Edit: With reasoning added

I listened to Neptune's Inferno on audio CD so not the same as reading. It was an enjoyable experience. I looked forward going to/from work and fighting rush hour traffic while listening to war's full wrath.
Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"

User avatar
warspite1
Posts: 41896
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:06 pm
Location: England

RE: Books NOT Recommended

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

ORIGINAL: warspite1
ORIGINAL: fcooke

(I don't really blame him for crappy BC design).
warspite1

What was crappy about it? The ships were:

a) not used as designed (they showed what they could do at the Falkland Islands)
b) not operated with an appropriate magazine and cordite handling process

The former may be blamed (perhaps unfairly) on Beatty but the latter? In no way shape or form can Beatty be excused for that one.....[:@]

The design was fine. Note how the German ships did not blow up but the RN vessels did. A recent study at Southampton university hit a mock up of the Queen Mary with exactly the same number of hits (and in the same places) that Seydlitz took (the Germans catalogued and photographed all hits on their captial ships) Guess what? Yep, the Queen Mary, like the Seydlitz, survives. Of course in real life the magazine and cordite handling procedures - sanctioned by Beatty - ensured that Queen Mary did not survive that long...... [:(]

Not a Jutland expert, but I thought that the handling procedure issues were endemic throughout the RN not just limited to the BC squadron.
warspite1

Jellicoe wrote to Beatty in 1915, telling him that the procedures adopted to maximise gunnery speed was being 'carried to excess'. But what was done prior or subsequent to that communication I cannot recall. There was an excellent article about this on line but I cannot locate it at the moment.

This is one of the reasons at the end of my review of Jellicoe's book I wonder to what extent Jellicoe was responsible for not exercising better control over his subordinates - Beatty chief among them. Sadly the cordite handling and magazine issue was not Beatty's only error at Jutland - not by a long chalk......

Edit: here it is:

http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.p ... -cruisers/
Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
User avatar
geofflambert
Posts: 14887
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2010 2:18 pm
Location: St. Louis

RE: Books NOT Recommended

Post by geofflambert »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I'm looking at The Proud Tower, Conquering Tides and The Pacific Crucible. Any objections?
warspite1

I object your honour.

Order in the court!

The most honourable geofflambert presiding.

warspite1, you are out of order!

Zorch
Posts: 7087
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 4:21 pm

RE: Books NOT Recommended

Post by Zorch »

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I'm looking at The Proud Tower, Conquering Tides and The Pacific Crucible. Any objections?
warspite1

I object your honour.

Order in the court!

The most honourable geofflambert presiding.

warspite1, you are out of order!
I liked The Proud Tower, as well as Tuchman's other books.

Your honor, you are abject.
User avatar
warspite1
Posts: 41896
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:06 pm
Location: England

RE: Books NOT Recommended

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Zorch

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

ORIGINAL: warspite1


warspite1

I object your honour.

Order in the court!

The most honourable geofflambert presiding.

warspite1, you are out of order!
I liked The Proud Tower, as well as Tuchman's other books.

Your honor, you are abject.
warspite1

But your honour! Perhaps you will permit me to state my case - if it pleases the court.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLJ6v1iIMcg
Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Mac Linehan
Posts: 1514
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 9:08 pm
Location: Denver Colorado

RE: Books NOT Recommended

Post by Mac Linehan »

ORIGINAL: jamesm

ORIGINAL: warspite1

- The Road to Stalingrad (Erikson) - I may have been too young/inexperienced to appreciate this book - or maybe it really was as poorly written as I remember. Like Hornfischer with Neptune's Inferno, Erickson's sentences are just impenetrable. Could be accurate, could be inaccurate - I have no idea because I didn't understand what he was talking about.....

I have to disagree with this one, I found both books in the series (Road to Stalingrad and Road to Berlin) interesting and useful reads.

+1-

I enjoyed both very much.

Mac
LAV-25 2147
User avatar
geofflambert
Posts: 14887
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2010 2:18 pm
Location: St. Louis

RE: Books NOT Recommended

Post by geofflambert »

The court is pleased. As you were.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaMAaGWL_qI

Mac Linehan
Posts: 1514
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 9:08 pm
Location: Denver Colorado

RE: Books NOT Recommended

Post by Mac Linehan »


Gents-

Have begun to prioritize what to read first, from the "Potentially the Book Thread" in this forum.

While I have, for many years, read and collected books on the Pacific War, that excellent thread showed me that I am really just beginning.

At the top of the list, is Ian Toll's "Pacific Crucible, War at Sea in the Pacific 1941 - 1942".

Just finished it today, absolutely outstanding. Will begin Volume 2 soonest.

I am deeply appreciative of all book threads, and the forumites who contributed to them.

And:

I do have "Neptune's Inferno" on my Kindle; will reserve judgment until read.

Respectfully,

Mac



LAV-25 2147
User avatar
geofflambert
Posts: 14887
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2010 2:18 pm
Location: St. Louis

RE: Books NOT Recommended

Post by geofflambert »

Dang it, I just ordered The Conquering Tide on Amazon without ordering Pacific Crucible. What's wrong with my wish list? Besides Olivia Munn not being on it.

Post Reply

Return to “War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition”