WitE 2

Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: The German-Soviet War 1941-1945 is a turn-based World War II strategy game stretching across the entire Eastern Front. Gamers can engage in an epic campaign, including division-sized battles with realistic and historical terrain, weather, orders of battle, logistics and combat results.

The critically and fan-acclaimed Eastern Front mega-game Gary Grigsby’s War in the East just got bigger and better with Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: Don to the Danube! This expansion to the award-winning War in the East comes with a wide array of later war scenarios ranging from short but intense 6 turn bouts like the Battle for Kharkov (1942) to immense 37-turn engagements taking place across multiple nations like Drama on the Danube (Summer 1944 – Spring 1945).

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RoflCopter4
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RE: WitE 2

Post by RoflCopter4 »

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

It took 4 years from WitE to WitW. It's been 1.5 years since WitW. We needed to spend more time post-release on WitE than WitW, so that is a plus for WitE2, however Gary is also spending some time on the tactical game in development so that is a minus (but Pavel is fully on WitE2). In some ways development of WitE2 should be easier than WitW was, but on the other hand it's a longer game that is harder to test and balance. However there's a lot of experience with unique WitE needs due to the WitE1 experience. We are in alpha, and will be for at least the rest of this year. Does that give you an answer? [:)]

I know it's rather ludicrously late to reply to this, but I don't check this forum often and I forgot to, so my apologies. Thank you for the very candid and helpful response, I appreciate it. You guys do excellent work.
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RE: WitE 2

Post by SeriousCatNZ »

I apologise if this has been asked before. I promise I did read through the entire thread.

Will you be able to attack the enemy's logistics networks directly?

For example, German encirclement of enemy forces during Operation Barbarossa depended heavily on cutting off Soviet units from supply depots in reality, as opposed to complete encirclement in WITE before units become isolated. Since WITE is using a version of the WITW logistics system, if you cut off all sources of supply but one railhead for an entire pocket, will Soviet resupply be limited by the capacity of that railhead, therefore leaving some or all divisions undersupplied?

How will motorised divisions be modelled?

Motorised troops were very good on the defensive, being able to quickly mass infantry and towed artillery, which was why they tended to follow behind the panzer spearhead. However, they're soft targets. Yet in WITE they're almost like pocket panzer divisions. Is this modelled by motor pool attrition?
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loki100
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RE: WitE 2

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: SeriousCat

I apologise if this has been asked before. I promise I did read through the entire thread.

Will you be able to attack the enemy's logistics networks directly?

For example, German encirclement of enemy forces during Operation Barbarossa depended heavily on cutting off Soviet units from supply depots in reality, as opposed to complete encirclement in WITE before units become isolated. Since WITE is using a version of the WITW logistics system, if you cut off all sources of supply but one railhead for an entire pocket, will Soviet resupply be limited by the capacity of that railhead, therefore leaving some or all divisions undersupplied?


The massive flaw in WiTE that a rail line can support entire fronts/army groups/all 4 Pzr Armies is gone. At the moment there are two types of rail line - dual and single track. The normal capacity of a dual line is 5000 units of freight and of single line is 2000 units.

You can exceed this up to about 15,000 (that was the WiTW rule anyway) for a dual track line (and I guess to 10,000 for single track). But what you do is then start burning off more of your rail stock. This means that you can move less supply/troops elsewhere so its not a great game. Also this rail cap is also needed to move up combat units etc.

Once freight arrives at a depot it is broken down into replacement manpower/fuel/supply and ammunition and then allocated out to the combat HQs in range (by truck). Depots come in 4 sizes and a small one can't process much supply in any case.

So yes a single track line rail running to a small depot will really not support very much combat operations. It is likely that units will be under-supplied.

You can control this by playing around with the supply priority of the Corps/Army HQs. So a #1 will just about get enough to enable the unit to function defensively if not attacked. #2 is fine if you want to defend and are not facing regular attacks, #3 gives you attack supply and #4 prioritises that formation.

But remember that these priorities simply determine who gets the supply that is available - so a #4 priority command in an area of poor supply will probably still not get enough for its own purposes and will strangle the supply given to everyone else.

You can test this in WiTW - give an allied corps in the Vosges/Belfort sector level #4 - you'll see it probably is still short but any other corps in that region will really struggle.

All this is making control of key clusters of potential depots and the double track rails key to play in WiTE2. Far more realistic than the WiTE situation - and I suspect is going to be a bit of a shock to some players who only play the axis side and exploit the current logistical rules.

ORIGINAL: SeriousCat

How will motorised divisions be modelled?

Motorised troops were very good on the defensive, being able to quickly mass infantry and towed artillery, which was why they tended to follow behind the panzer spearhead. However, they're soft targets. Yet in WITE they're almost like pocket panzer divisions. Is this modelled by motor pool attrition?

Those doing the detailed OOB work will be better placed to comment. Overall trucks are scarce for both sides - and due to the supply changes above, they are more important for resupply work than they are in WiTE. From my current PBEM with the axis for T5 I have 210k/220k of the trucks needed in units, 81k in the pool and 60k/150k of those needed for the supply operation. I'd suspect this might change but it means that any serious losses in my motorised divisions will really hurt.

I suspect there won't be special rules for any unit but given the new supply game and the importance of the truck (for both sides), you are going to have be cautious over the deployment of the Mot divisions. But I suspect they will remain as they are in WiTE - a good substitute for a Pzr division where you perhaps need mobility more than raw combat power.


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RedLancer
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RE: WitE 2

Post by RedLancer »

One planned difference for WitE2 from WitW will be the ability to locate/see enemy depots and attack them from the air.
John
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WitE & WitW Dev
SeriousCatNZ
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RE: WitE 2

Post by SeriousCatNZ »

Two things that have always struck me as super ridiculous in WITE:

(1) Pockets supplied through one hex.

Pockets can be adequately supplied in any circumstance that doesn't involve a total encirclement for at least one turn Ten of my divisions are almost completely surrounded, with a one friendly hex opening but is in an enemy ZOC. My units are three clear hexes and one river away from a railhead, yet all 10 of my divisions in the pocket will be adequately supplied for the week and can even attack at full strength.

(2) Never–ending re–pocketing and pocket supply (e.g. maybe tree bark soup?)

Pockets can be isolated during one player's turn, yet the pocket is broken in the opposing players turn, resulting in the entire pocket being in full supply. Which then requires re–pocketing the enemy, which once again magically becomes in–supply during their turn.

Will these be possible in WITE 2?
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RE: WitE 2

Post by SigUp »

I think you misunderstood something about the WitE system. If a pocket's broken the units in there will not be in full supply. They are back in supply, but since the logistics phase has already passed they have not been resupplied. If they are pocketed again he next turn, they once again won't be supplied.

Now, in WitE the weakness is that supplies status hardly affect CV, which is not the case in WitW. In WitW undersupplied units take a massive hit on their CVs, which should also apply to WitE2.
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LiquidSky
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RE: WitE 2

Post by LiquidSky »

ORIGINAL: SigUp

I think you misunderstood something about the WitE system. If a pocket's broken the units in there will not be in full supply. They are back in supply, but since the logistics phase has already passed they have not been resupplied. If they are pocketed again he next turn, they once again won't be supplied.

Now, in WitE the weakness is that supplies status hardly affect CV, which is not the case in WitW. In WitW undersupplied units take a massive hit on their CVs, which should also apply to WitE2.


This is not quite true. Units in WiTW take a hit when they expend ammo. They also wont take a hit until their internal supplies runs out. Which means they can fight/move in their pocket (with a slight reduced isolation penalty) with their internal supplies.

If you surround a German panzer division with full supplies, he is probably going to kick your ass on the way out.
“My logisticians are a humorless lot … they know if my campaign fails, they are the first ones I will slay.” – Alexander the Great
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RE: WitE 2

Post by SigUp »

I grouped ammo and fuel under supplies.
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morvael
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RE: WitE 2

Post by morvael »

ORIGINAL: SeriousCat

(1) Pockets supplied through one hex.

(2) Never–ending re–pocketing and pocket supply (e.g. maybe tree bark soup?)

Maybe the effects are not strong enough, but:
1) I don't think rail supply can go through a hex in ZOC. And road supply will be reduced by higher MP cost to move via ZOC.
2) Pockets isolated at the end of your turn are not getting any supplies or replacements during enemy logistics phase. Their morale and supply level will drop, fatigue will remain high, and damaged elements will be kept. The main penalty to CV in WitE1 is "isolation" status though, and this is removed once pocket is reopened (non-isolated units rout out of pockets, so you need to have them isolated at start of turn to begin destruction). So it's still better to close the pocked than not, even if it will be reopened, but for sure it's not that good as full isolation.
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robinsa
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RE: WitE 2

Post by robinsa »

ORIGINAL: SeriousCat

Two things that have always struck me as super ridiculous in WITE:

(1) Pockets supplied through one hex.
[
Pockets can be adequately supplied in any circumstance that doesn't involve a total encirclement for at least one turn Ten of my divisions are almost completely surrounded, with a one friendly hex opening but is in an enemy ZOC. My units are three clear hexes and one river away from a railhead, yet all 10 of my divisions in the pocket will be adequately supplied for the week and can even attack at full strength.

(2) Never–ending re–pocketing and pocket supply (e.g. maybe tree bark soup?)

Pockets can be isolated during one player's turn, yet the pocket is broken in the opposing players turn, resulting in the entire pocket being in full supply. Which then requires re–pocketing the enemy, which once again magically becomes in–supply during their turn.

Will these be possible in WITE 2?
This is a bi-product of the week long turns and the IGOUGO system. It`s not very likely opposing force would sit still for a week while being surrounded. Without daily turns and a WEGO system, which is not about to happen, surrounds depleting all supply right away would be very unfair as it essentially means that any breakthrough would go unanswered. This might be true in 41 and 45 but not in between. The way I see it is that if the opponent is able to re-open the pocket it was never closed in the first place (or maybe closed just for a few hours).
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RE: WitE 2

Post by SeriousCatNZ »

Whilst it's perfectly understandable for infantry divisions to fight on using dwindling internal stocks, how is a panzer division capable of satisfying the voracious fuel requirements without a solid logistics tail linking the front to the zone of the interior? Panzers without fuel can't fight or move.
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RE: WitE 2

Post by robinsa »

ORIGINAL: SeriousCat

Whilst it's perfectly understandable for infantry divisions to fight on using dwindling internal stocks, how is a panzer division capable of satisfying the voracious fuel requirements without a solid logistics tail linking the front to the zone of the interior? Panzers without fuel can't fight or move.
I may have misunderstood the initial post.

If there is a land route that is safe for transportation I don't see why it wouldn't be used. That being said I agree that it would likely result in a substantial bottleneck and that eventually supplies would run out. I wonder will the new supply system take these kinds of bottlenecks into consideration or is it only "proximity" to an ammunition/fuel/supply dump that counts? I know the rail system accounts for bottlenecks but what about the road system?
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NotOneStepBack
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RE: WitE 2

Post by NotOneStepBack »

Has there been any update on when the new round of beta testers get to join ? :)
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Joel Billings
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RE: WitE 2

Post by Joel Billings »

Thanks for your interest. We are in alpha, not beta, so there is no open call for testers. Periodically we add in a few experienced players/testers to help us with our early alpha testing. We don't expect to be adding a lot of testers for many months. If you're an experienced War in the West and War in the East player and have an interest in early testing, you can mention it here so we can take note, but we will only be adding a few testers at most in the next few months. We need to get more things done first before it will make sense to manage more testers.
All understanding comes after the fact.
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Icier
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RE: WitE 2

Post by Icier »

What is needed is a decent A1.
WITE is a killer for solo players who want to play to till the end...almost 1-2 hours for moves in 42 & onwards. I for one almost
gave the game away.
Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
charlie0311
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RE: WitE 2

Post by charlie0311 »

Hi,

ai very, very slow, but only when it "thinks" it has the initiative. Show it who's boss, a good winter 42/43 offensive will do it. That will speed it right up to only a few minutes per turn, it's fast at arranging its defenses. hehe
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heliodorus04
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RE: WitE 2

Post by heliodorus04 »

ORIGINAL: Ice

What is needed is a decent A1.
WITE is a killer for solo players who want to play to till the end...almost 1-2 hours for moves in 42 & onwards. I for one almost
gave the game away.

Are you playing using the enhanced CV calculations/display? If you do, the first thing I would do is use normal CV displays.

Otherwise try upgrading from what must be East German surplus computers (which I mean as a funny) [:D]

I am very happy with the AI at custom settings I have honed over time. Very realistic war it gives me until late 44.
Fall 2021-Playing: Stalingrad'42 (GMT); Advanced Squad Leader,
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NotOneStepBack
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RE: WitE 2

Post by NotOneStepBack »

What are those customized settings?
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Icier
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RE: WitE 2

Post by Icier »

sorry duplicated
Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
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Icier
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RE: WitE 2

Post by Icier »

What settings are you using, I have never got past 43 & are you 1.09?
As for computers..I am using an Atari 69..runs well, only problem is that the tape gets stuck
in the drive & I have to bang on it a couple times to get it running!
Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
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