Rumble in the Southwest witpqs-A vs Andav-J 2011-11-29 to 2017-02-08

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Yeah, Tokyo garrison is around 1150.

Are any of the Chinese units unrestricted? They can be great help with garrison duties. IIRC 11th Group Army HQ and attached units are not permanent restricted.

Yes but I don't recall at the moment how many. They were all bought out, fought in Burma and beyond, and are now fighting in China. Once we get a horde of respawned Chinese Army units the unrestricted units will be a welcome addition to an invasion force.

[Rafid]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Yeah, Tokyo garrison is around 1150.

Are any of the Chinese units unrestricted? They can be great help with garrison duties. IIRC 11th Group Army HQ and attached units are not permanent restricted.

Yes but I don't recall at the moment how many. They were all bought out, fought in Burma and beyond, and are now fighting in China. Once we get a horde of respawned Chinese Army units the unrestricted units will be a welcome addition to an invasion force.

Somehow I can't see that happening politically in real life.

[Drakanel]

Well, kushiro fell at first assault. that's very good. It seems Hokkaido was not really prepared for a ground invasion. Which works to your advantage just fine.

I am a bit worried by the B29 losses.... seems quite high.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: Drakanel

Well, kushiro fell at first assault. that's very good. It seems Hokkaido was not really prepared for a ground invasion. Which works to your advantage just fine.

I am a bit worried by the B29 losses.... seems quite high.

Hokkaido can be really tough to garrison as you want to use restricted troops, but they have to be General Def restricted and not restricted to a command under General Def which most restricted divisions on Honshu are.

So you need to spend PP.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Rafid

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Yeah, Tokyo garrison is around 1150.

Are any of the Chinese units unrestricted? They can be great help with garrison duties. IIRC 11th Group Army HQ and attached units are not permanent restricted.

Yes but I don't recall at the moment how many. They were all bought out, fought in Burma and beyond, and are now fighting in China. Once we get a horde of respawned Chinese Army units the unrestricted units will be a welcome addition to an invasion force.

Somehow I can't see that happening politically in real life.

IRL as it happened, yes. But consider the alternate history of a liberated China with the opportunity for some in-kind garrison duty there.

[RangerJoe]

I just noticed something. You can build PT boats at Kushiro so you can have PT/MTB boats fighting each other - as well as having your PT boats lure air raids for your CAP to destroy!

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

I just noticed something. You can build PT boats at Kushiro so you can have PT/MTB boats fighting each other - as well as having your PT boats lure air raids for your CAP to destroy!

I thought of that too! (At least the PT vs PT thing.) I plan to operate some from there, I just didn't realize that I could already create them at Kushiro.

[Rafid]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

IRL as it happened, yes. But consider the alternate history of a liberated China with the opportunity for some in-kind garrison duty there.

No I mean even in the scenario as it plays out here. I cannot imagine, that even with China liberated completly the Americans would have wanted Chinese troops in Japan.

a) It would look like they needed Chinas help to beat Japan
b) The Chinese might/will ask for some role in post war Japan (occupation zones, permanent land concessions, ...)
c) Would the Chinese give up their occupation when the Americans said so, what if not?
d) Would at least some Chinese troopers try to get payback for the Japanese actions in Nanking and many other places? Also even destroyed post war Japan might seem very rich for a poor Chinese peasant soldier (looting).

Remember that the Americans at first planed downfall with only American Troops (not even Australian or British, though mostly due to different logistic trails and coordination) and that likewise the British were very reluctant to admit Chinese troops in Burma in 1942 even in their extremly dire situation.

On a side note, there probably was no chance in hell to liberate all of China in 1945 IRL, just like it was immpossible for Japan to capture it completly (but happens all the time in the game). The game is just not very good at modelling the ultimate tar baby and logistic sinkhole that China was for all parties involved.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Rafid

ORIGINAL: witpqs

IRL as it happened, yes. But consider the alternate history of a liberated China with the opportunity for some in-kind garrison duty there.

No I mean even in the scenario as it plays out here. I cannot imagine, that even with China liberated completly the Americans would have wanted Chinese troops in Japan.

a) It would look like they needed Chinas help to beat Japan
b) The Chinese might/will ask for some role in post war Japan (occupation zones, permanent land concessions, ...)
c) Would the Chinese give up their occupation when the Americans said so, what if not?
d) Would at least some Chinese troopers try to get payback for the Japanese actions in Nanking and many other places? Also even destroyed post war Japan might seem very rich for a poor Chinese peasant soldier (looting).

Remember that the Americans at first planed downfall with only American Troops (not even Australian or British, though mostly due to different logistic trails and coordination) and that likewise the British were very reluctant to admit Chinese troops in Burma in 1942 even in their extremly dire situation.

On a side note, there probably was no chance in hell to liberate all of China in 1945 IRL, just like it was immpossible for Japan to capture it completly (but happens all the time in the game). The game is just not very good at modelling the ultimate tar baby and logistic sinkhole that China was for all parties involved.

Of all these "reasons" I am only persuaded by "d)". The US was getting very concerned about casualty rates and would have welcomed anyone who could fight effectively and provide their own food and ammo.

They were beyond the pride of wanting to be seen as defeating Japan single-handedly. The USN had already made that true.

The Chinese troops used could have been all Kuomintang so there would be no ideological issues on the capitalism/communism side and it would be easy enough to tell Chiang Kai Shek that the occupation would end when the US was satisfied that Japan could stand on its own.

The only land concession the Chinese might consider rightfully theirs would be Manchuria - I am unsure about its separate status as a nation before the Japanese occupied it - but they might have to fight with an independence movement there while trying to stabilize their own country - something they would not be ready to risk.


But the risk of retaliation atrocities would perhaps persuade the US political leaders to give the Chinese a bigger role on the continent instead of in Japan.
And a reason not yet mentioned - the average westerner could not distinguish one East Asian race from another so there would be lots of "friendly fire" issues.

In the game, the Chinese could garrison in Manchukuo and Vietnam/Indo-China to free up other Allied troops to go to Japan.

[witpqs]

I'm not of a mind to consider the politics surrounding atrocities in this game decision, so eliminate those considerations. Increased friendly fire potential is/was already present from Burma through Thailand, Indochina, and now China, so not really valid to worry it now.

The US did want to go alone in the invasion, but would have (did already in the planning???) pull in other nations. In game this would certainly include Soviet units if activated.

Manchukuo, as a game decision, looks to be a tough nut. I had some thoughts about either drawing out or destroying sufficient of the garrison to activate the Soviets, but discussions here informed me that I would have to outright destroy (IIRC) at least 3 to 4 thousand AV worth of LCU points. Sounds like a very long operation not guaranteed to advance the Soviet entry date.

I am certainly willing to use available Chinese Army units to garrison Japanese bases. I am also willing to use them in the assault role, but they lack the same offensive power of most Allied armies.

[Rafid]

I was not trying to talk you out of doing anything in game. Using the Chinese for garrison is perfect due to their ratio of AV to firepower.

I read the wikipedia (I know - not a scientific source) article on operation downfall again and it said: "MacArthur blocked proposals to include an Indian Army division because of differences in language, organization, composition, equipment, training and doctrine." - That would have ruled out Chinese I guess.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Rafid

I was not trying to talk you out of doing anything in game. Using the Chinese for garrison is perfect due to their ratio of AV to firepower.

I read the wikipedia (I know - not a scientific source) article on operation downfall again and it said: "MacArthur blocked proposals to include an Indian Army division because of differences in language, organization, composition, equipment, training and doctrine." - That would have ruled out Chinese I guess.

That makes it sound like it also would have ruled out the British Army, since they formed and ran the Indian Army at the time. Anyway, things MacArthur pronounced might not have stood the test of time once an invasion got underway and was more difficult than he planned on.

Rafid I did take you to be giving me advice/guidance on game decisions, which is perfectly fine and 100% welcome! I was explaining my thinking on those issues. Please do continue to advise in the future!

[RangerJoe]

Considering the fact that the Commonwealth used a lot of US equipment at that time and the fact that Europe was not requiring much equipment and supplies, it would not have been improbable that some Commonwealth divisions could have been equipped with a lot of US supplied weapons and equipment. Also, given their own area of operations as in the ETO, the Commonwealth units would have had their own logistics organizations. It would not be modeled in the game but it could have occurred in actuality.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Considering the fact that the Commonwealth used a lot of US equipment at that time and the fact that Europe was not requiring much equipment and supplies, it would not have been improbable that some Commonwealth divisions could have been equipped with a lot of US supplied weapons and equipment. Also, given their own area of operations as in the ETO, the Commonwealth units would have had their own logistics organizations. It would not be modeled in the game but it could have occurred in actuality.

Ike made it work in ETO ... with a little "will" instead of "won't" MacArthur could have made a mixed force work too.

witpqs: Kwantung Army starts with around 12K AV, but if the Japanese player has been buying out units it could well be near the 8 K level. Still, going below 8K only gives the chance of activation so you would likely have the long campaign you fear. Good call re: not going there! [:)]

[witpqs]

1945 February 12

The Empire captured:


The Allies captured:
Bataan is occupied by the Allies
Allied forces CAPTURE Memboro !!!
Allied forces CAPTURE Rongelap !!!

There were Imperial amphibious or airborne operations at:


There were Allied amphibious or airborne operations at:
Rongelap
Tacloban

Imperial Naval Bombardments


Allied Naval Bombardments:



Our subs are conducting secret activities.

Continued progress on the ground in China, but...

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Ground combat at 86,58 (near Pucheng)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 6922 troops, 74 guns, 84 vehicles, Assault Value = 294

Defending force 455 troops, 1 guns, 12 vehicles, Assault Value = 18

Allied adjusted assault: 275

Japanese adjusted defense: 1

Allied assault odds: 275 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+)
Attacker: leaders(+)

Japanese ground losses:
445 casualties reported
Squads: 34 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 13 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 1 (1 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Vehicles lost 14 (14 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Units destroyed 1

Allied ground losses:
32 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

Assaulting units:
44th Indian Brigade
671th Tank Destroyer Battalion
111th LRP Brigade

Defending units:
51st Recon Regiment


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Ground combat at 82,47 (near Ichang)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 2570 troops, 2 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 99

Defending force 285 troops, 3 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 4

Allied adjusted assault: 22

Japanese adjusted defense: 4

Allied assault odds: 5 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(-), experience(-)
Attacker: leaders(-)

Japanese ground losses:
73 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 3 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Units retreated 1

Allied ground losses:
4 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Defeated Japanese Units Retreating!

Assaulting units:
78th Chinese/A Corps

Defending units:
32nd JAAF AF Coy


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...the supply shortage at the main spearhead is quite vexing. Still not close to enough supply to mount an attack. 4EB activity has been reduced further. More than 100k supply will begin unloading at Hong Kong tomorrow, and plenty more is on the way.

We have closed the NE hex side at Hankow. Over at Chengtu it looks like our forces will cross the river tomorrow, but it will be a close call as to whether all do or not. Units already in the city are ordered to attack in support.

Trying to take a bite out of withdrawing enemy troops before they reach friends in Manila.

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Ground combat at Mauban (80,78)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 5786 troops, 65 guns, 222 vehicles, Assault Value = 207

Defending force 8781 troops, 62 guns, 25 vehicles, Assault Value = 266

Allied adjusted assault: 109

Japanese adjusted defense: 231

Allied assault odds: 1 to 2 (fort level 3)

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), leaders(+), preparation(-)
fatigue(-), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
202 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 41 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 6 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Vehicles lost 6 (2 destroyed, 4 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
80 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 10 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Vehicles lost 16 (1 destroyed, 15 disabled)

Assaulting units:
1st Regiment
2nd Regiment
Torres Strait Battalion
29th British Brigade

Defending units:
66th Infantry Regiment
39th/A Division
27th Tank Regiment


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Two more dot-bases denied to Imperial ghost ships, if there be any.

Our Avengers hit the retreating troops ex-Kushiro.

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Afternoon Air attack on 77th/A Division, at 123,52 , near Bihoro

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid spotted at 26 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K2-J George x 3

Allied aircraft
F6F-3 Hellcat x 195
TBF-1 Avenger x 4
TBM-1C Avenger x 156

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-3 Hellcat: 3 destroyed
TBM-1C Avenger: 1 destroyed, 28 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
413 casualties reported
Squads: 4 destroyed, 10 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 32 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x TBM-1C Avenger bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x TBM-1C Avenger bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x TBM-1C Avenger bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x TBM-1C Avenger bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x TBF-1 Avenger bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x TBM-1C Avenger bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x TBM-1C Avenger bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x TBM-1C Avenger bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x TBM-1C Avenger bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x TBM-1C Avenger bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x TBM-1C Avenger bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x TBM-1C Avenger bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x TBM-1C Avenger bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x TBM-1C Avenger bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x TBM-1C Avenger bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x TBM-1C Avenger bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x TBM-1C Avenger bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x TBM-1C Avenger bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x TBM-1C Avenger bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x TBM-1C Avenger bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x TBM-1C Avenger bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x TBM-1C Avenger bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x TBM-1C Avenger bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x TBM-1C Avenger bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x TBM-1C Avenger bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x TBM-1C Avenger bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x TBM-1C Avenger bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x TBM-1C Avenger bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x TBM-1C Avenger bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x TBM-1C Avenger bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x TBM-1C Avenger bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x TBM-1C Avenger bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x TBM-1C Avenger bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x TBM-1C Avenger bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x TBM-1C Avenger bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x TBM-1C Avenger bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x TBM-1C Avenger bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x TBM-1C Avenger bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x TBM-1C Avenger bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x TBM-1C Avenger bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
S-402 Hikotai with N1K2-J George (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(3 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 14000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 14000.
Raid is overhead

Also attacking 77th JAAF AF Bn ...
Also attacking 77th/A Division ...
Also attacking 7th/C Division ...
Also attacking 77th/A Division ...
Also attacking 77th JAAF AF Bn ...
Also attacking 77th/A Division ...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We will weaken them as much as possible before they get to good defensive terrain. Our troops are trying to get in front of them but have twice as far to go. Mines were also cleared at Kushiro, possibly all of them.

Hundreds of aircraft landed at Kushiro by sea, while the naval support had to wait its turn for tomorrow. A number of large base forces will land the day after. A tsunami of supply is making its way over the docks and beaches. The last of the troop assault convoys has finished unloading and will leave port tonight. The first of the (many) ammo ships will arrive tonight/tomorrow. Attempts at creating PT boats have been limited to 1 (one) PT boat. I figure the smallish port is just too heavily damaged. The aircraft just landed will be worthless for a few days until air support lands, the airfield services are repaired, and the aircraft get uncrated and smog checked. They are not all front line invasion ready groups, they were actually all the groups ready to be transported from the West Coast when the convoys got under way. Transport, search (lots), attack (1E & 2E), and fighters including lots of night fighters to protect the (eventual) B-29 groups and the fleet.

China west.

[witpqs]

China east.

[witpqs]

Philippines.

[witpqs]

Home Islands west. P-51D sweeps of Kagoshima took out several defending fighters for no losses. Tomorrow the B-29-25 groups at Taihoku hit Light Industry at Nagasaki/Sasebo. P-47 and P-51 sweeps will attempt to precede them. B-24J from Daito Shoto will hit Heavy Industry there too, while PBJ-1D groups from Nago will target the Betty factories. Overall there seem to be fewer Imperial fighters in the area until as far east as Hiroshima/Kure. Perhaps industry on Kyushu is judged a semi-lost cause.

[witpqs]

Home Islands east. Bihoro shows only ~10,000 troops. By the time our 2x divisions (equivalent) get there we should have some LBA operating to support them.

[witpqs]

Nagasaki/Sasebo.