European Championship

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Well sometimes in football you get the luck. You manage to qualify from your group, but although you don't finish top, you still get a lucky, easy draw in the first knockout round. I get Iceland got lucky....

Well said.

What do you think of France?

[Orm]

I suppose that England will take some comfort in Wales and Bale?

[warspite1]

But humour aside, Iceland thoroughly deserved the win and England were England.

We were awful - truly awful. I don't think tiredness comes into it - except for Kane (who has played two years solid with barely a break). We were just clueless. Some questions Mr Hodgson:

- Why was Walker not given licence to run at the defence like against Russia and Wales?
- Why was Sturridge getting in his way? Sturridge is a striker. Why was he wanting to be a winger. Why not have Walker as the winger with Sturridge feeding off him?
- Why not tell Kane (you know, a striker) to stay in the penalty box. Period. He may even get on the end of a cross that might come his way from Walker/Sturridge.
- Why persist with Rooney when he can't pass from 5-yards? (that is a rhetorical question of course)
- Why was Kane taking free kicks?
- Why was Kane taking a free kick from 40 metres?
- Why did it take 85 minutes for Rashford to come on?
- I wouldn't have played Sterling, but having done so, he was actually fairly effective. Why then take him off?
- Why couldn't we defend. Iceland saw our penalty area twice in the first 20 minutes. They scored twice....
- Why can't England players pass the ball forward like German footballers do? And I mean penetrating balls that worry defenders - not sideways balls (although in the second half we couldn't even do that).

The Slovakian performance started to ring alarm bells but at least in the group stage we weren't that bad. Tonight we went back to what England do best. We came to a football tournament and stank the place out.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

But humour aside, Iceland thoroughly deserved the win and England were England.

We were awful - truly awful. I don't think tiredness comes into it - except for Kane (who has played two years solid with barely a break). We were just clueless. Some questions Mr Hodgson:

- Why was Walker not given licence to run at the defence like against Russia and Wales?
- Why was Sturridge getting in his way? Sturridge is a striker. Why was he wanting to be a winger. Why not have Walker as the winger with Sturridge feeding off him?
- Why not tell Kane (you know, a striker) to stay in the penalty box. Period. He may even get on the end of a cross that might come his way from Walker/Sturridge.
- Why persist with Rooney when he can't pass from 5-yards? (that is a rhetorical question of course)
- Why was Kane taking free kicks?
- Why was Kane taking a free kick from 40 metres?
- Why did it take 85 minutes for Rashford to come on?
- I wouldn't have played Sterling, but having done so, he was actually fairly effective. Why then take him off?
- Why couldn't we defend. Iceland saw our penalty area twice in the first 20 minutes. They scored twice....
- Why can't England players pass the ball forward like German footballers do? And I mean penetrating balls that worry defenders - not sideways balls (although in the second half we couldn't even do that).

The Slovakian performance started to ring alarm bells but at least in the group stage we weren't that bad. Tonight we went back to what England do best. We came to a football tournament and stank the place out.

You said it perfectly.

Edit: Although more players than Kane looked tired. Or were they forbidden to run more? Why was not Rashford a starting player. It felt like he run more on his 8 minutes than several of the other players did during the entire game (note that this is of course an exaggeration).

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Orm

I suppose that England will take some comfort in Wales and Bale?

warspite1

Everyone is different, and I can only speak from a personal perspective as a proud Englishman and Briton.

In football I only support England, they are my country (as we have separate representation). I therefore take absolutely no comfort whatsoever in Wales and Bale. None. I have just seen my country humiliated. Nothing else matters.

That said, with England gone, I wish my fellow Britons the Welsh all the very best and I sincerely hope they win it. I will be cheering them on against the Belgians and hope Gareth, Ben and co can do the biz.

[Dixie]

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: Dixie

And Roy Hodgson has resigned.

He could have waited for the axe instead. Not a pleasant alternative.

Ah, but if he was fired then he could claim unemployment benefits [:D] But as he resigned he's made himself jobless and thus cannot claim for 3(iirc) months. Typical England, jumping the gun instead of being patient [:'(]

[loki100]

well we can but hope that the muppets in charge of the SFA (and they make the English FA seem far-sighted) have watched what Iceland have managed and decide its time to invest effectively in Scottish football. It would be nice to get knocked out of a major tournament again [;)]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: loki100

well we can but hope that the muppets in charge of the SFA (and they make the English FA seem far-sighted) have watched what Iceland have managed and decide its time to invest effectively in Scottish football. It would be nice to get knocked out of a major tournament again [;)]

warspite1

Well Scotland have never actually made it out of the group stages at any tournament. Shocking.

But when you look at Iceland and other small countries, you realise that Scotland can do something about its football malaise given the necessary commitment and someone who knows what the hell they are doing. I just wish I knew what, its so very sad to see Scottish domestic football in its current state [:(]

The difference between England/Scotland and Germany is incredible. Germany have one rubbish tournament (Euro 2000 when they were so bad they even lost to England) and what happened? A root and branch change to the way things are done. Less than 20 years later they are World Champions once more. Can't we copy what they did? [&:]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Dixie

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: Dixie

And Roy Hodgson has resigned.

He could have waited for the axe instead. Not a pleasant alternative.

Ah, but if he was fired then he could claim unemployment benefits [:D] But as he resigned he's made himself jobless and thus cannot claim for 3(iirc) months. Typical England, jumping the gun instead of being patient [:'(]

warspite1

What is really scary is the list of replacement candidates. Apparently England were talking to Brendan Rogers a few months ago.....although thankfully he's now at Celtic.

God help us...

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

..

Well Scotland have never actually made it out of the group stages at any tournament. Shocking.

But when you look at Iceland and other small countries, you realise that Scotland can do something about its football malaise given the necessary commitment and someone who knows what the hell they are doing. I just wish I knew what, its so very sad to see Scottish domestic football in its current state [:(]

...

To be honest its attitudinal. As an organisation they have been/mired in the sectarianism that still afflicts the west coast of Scotland - it was one (of very many) reasons why they ignored the emerging issues at Rangers for 5 years and then only acted on the threat of legal action (a tale for a very different thread though). More generally, they could make enough money off the back of the Old Firm matches and the guarenteed CL football that both Rangers and Celtic had for so long (hard to believe now).

Add on the disgraceful behaviour of those 2 clubs. If say Hibs or Dundee Utd started to produce a good team from their own coaching, they would buy up the players - not really to play but to weaken their potential rivals to their duopoly.

I think the really good thing about Iceland's sucess (and Leicester in the PL) is it eliminates any complacency about country size etc. Resources well used produce outcomes. As far as I can see, the key issue for Iceland was to invest heavily in in-door pitches - good for population health as well as nurturing potential professional footballers. That is probably beyond the wit and reason of the numpties who run much of Local Govt here and the SFA but others perhaps have the capacity to force change.

Its not that I think we deserve to be any where but where we are. Our position reflects our level of professionalism.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Dixie

And Roy Hodgson has resigned.

Sorry guys... it was amazing game... I was for England but they didn't make it...

BTW, funny how things are... the Iceland won their last group game against Austria 2:1 in last minute - if it remained 1:1 Iceland would play Croatia (and Croatia would not play Portugal)... football... luck...


Leo "Apollo11"

[Frido1207]

ORIGINAL: Franciscus

Stunning !! Amazing !!! [X(]

I indeed bet on Iceland on our Kicktipp,...

This was the best and -by far- the most courageous bet in our Kicktipp competition. [8D]

[Franciscus]

ORIGINAL: th1207

ORIGINAL: Franciscus

Stunning !! Amazing !!! [X(]

I indeed bet on Iceland on our Kicktipp,...

This was the best and -by far- the most courageous bet in our Kicktipp competition. [8D]

Thank you, sir [&o]

Either that or the most desperate [:D]

[Ambassador]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Orm

I suppose that England will take some comfort in Wales and Bale?

warspite1

Everyone is different, and I can only speak from a personal perspective as a proud Englishman and Briton.

In football I only support England, they are my country (as we have separate representation). I therefore take absolutely no comfort whatsoever in Wales and Bale. None. I have just seen my country humiliated. Nothing else matters.

That said, with England gone, I wish my fellow Britons the Welsh all the very best and I sincerely hope they win it. I will be cheering them on against the Belgians and hope Gareth, Ben and co can do the biz.

Well, looking at things from this side of the Channel, I never understood why you Britons are stuck with four different national teams, while every other country (that I know of) has one, and only one. Think of it as a waste of good talents spread over four teams. It's as if us Belgians fielded one Flemish, one Walloon and a Brussels teams : would they be half as good as the aggregate ? Wouldn't think so...

But I see this as only one of the problems plaguing your national team, and preventing it (or them) of achieving better results. The other problem is money : the big clubs of the Premier League bring too much money, ergo too many outstanding foreign players are brought to the alpha teams, leaving few space for good English players. In the last fifty years (ie since the victory at the '66 world venue), what are the best results ? Semi-finals, twice at the Euro, once at the World Cup, the last in 1996. It corresponds to the beginning of the era of big money in PL, and while I grew up playing Championship Manager in the nineties, I could see the value of Alan Shearer, David Beckham, Andy Cole, David Platt, Paul Ince, the Neville brothers, Graeme Le Saux, Teddy Sheringham, Paul Gascoigne, Southgate, Scholes, Fowler, Campbell, Butt, countless others, Scots (McAllister, Paul Lambert, Christian Dailly, McNamara, Gemmill,...), Welsh (Gary Speed, Coleman, Ryan Giggs, Ceri Hugues, Gareth Hall,...), Irishmen (Roy Kean, Phil Babb, Andy Townsend, Jason McAteer, Niall Quinn...). Those were giants. Those were stars in their clubs.
They played, a lot. But now ? English/Scottish/Welsh/Irish players are blocked in Premier League, too many foreign players brought in by the money - good players indeed, but that's not how you nurture a good national team.
Look at the English squad for the Euro : youngsters, too many of them. It looks like you lack in the 25-30yo slice, that don't play enough at home : young promising players get their chance, but they're soon phased out in favor of better foreign players. I'm under the impression they're smothered. It's a sad loss in many a case, I guess. Brings up the level of the championship, does no good for the national teams.

Just my 2 cents...

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Orm

I suppose that England will take some comfort in Wales and Bale?

warspite1

Everyone is different, and I can only speak from a personal perspective as a proud Englishman and Briton.

In football I only support England, they are my country (as we have separate representation). I therefore take absolutely no comfort whatsoever in Wales and Bale. None. I have just seen my country humiliated. Nothing else matters.

That said, with England gone, I wish my fellow Britons the Welsh all the very best and I sincerely hope they win it. I will be cheering them on against the Belgians and hope Gareth, Ben and co can do the biz.

Well, looking at things from this side of the Channel, I never understood why you Britons are stuck with four different national teams, while every other country (that I know of) has one, and only one. Think of it as a waste of good talents spread over four teams. It's as if us Belgians fielded one Flemish, one Walloon and a Brussels teams : would they be half as good as the aggregate ? Wouldn't think so...

But I see this as only one of the problems plaguing your national team, and preventing it (or them) of achieving better results. The other problem is money : the big clubs of the Premier League bring too much money, ergo too many outstanding foreign players are brought to the alpha teams, leaving few space for good English players. In the last fifty years (ie since the victory at the '66 world venue), what are the best results ? Semi-finals, twice at the Euro, once at the World Cup, the last in 1996. It corresponds to the beginning of the era of big money in PL, and while I grew up playing Championship Manager in the nineties, I could see the value of Alan Shearer, David Beckham, Andy Cole, David Platt, Paul Ince, the Neville brothers, Graeme Le Saux, Teddy Sheringham, Paul Gascoigne, Southgate, Scholes, Fowler, Campbell, Butt, countless others, Scots (McAllister, Paul Lambert, Christian Dailly, McNamara, Gemmill,...), Welsh (Gary Speed, Coleman, Ryan Giggs, Ceri Hugues, Gareth Hall,...), Irishmen (Roy Kean, Phil Babb, Andy Townsend, Jason McAteer, Niall Quinn...). Those were giants. Those were stars in their clubs.
They played, a lot. But now ? English/Scottish/Welsh/Irish players are blocked in Premier League, too many foreign players brought in by the money - good players indeed, but that's not how you nurture a good national team.
Look at the English squad for the Euro : youngsters, too many of them. It looks like you lack in the 25-30yo slice, that don't play enough at home : young promising players get their chance, but they're soon phased out in favor of better foreign players. I'm under the impression they're smothered. It's a sad loss in many a case, I guess. Brings up the level of the championship, does no good for the national teams.

Just my 2 cents...

warspite1

We are not "stuck" with four national teams. Ask almost anyone and I am sure the answer you will get is we want our separate identity. You say every other country has one and only one. Well they are one country [:)]. Unlike the Flemish, the Walloons, the Catalans, the Prussians or whatever, England, Scotland, Wales and (what was Ireland) ARE separate countries.

Personally whilst I agree that we may have too many foreigners in the Premier League (there has to be a balance right?) I do not think this is the reason for our lack of success. After all, the Premiership - and the money - is relatively new. (Apologies this is off the top of my head so I may have one or two wrong) but where were we in (all pre- or early premiership):

1968 EC: 3rd Place
1970 WC: Quarter-Final (threw away a 2-0 lead to the Germans)
1972 EC: Thrashed at Wembley 3-1 by the Germans (Gunther Bloody Netzer [:D]) at Q-F stage?
1974 WC: Did not Qualify (DNQ)
1976 EC: Can't remember but I don't think we qualified
1978 WC: DNQ
1980 EC: Did not get out of the group stage
1982 WC: Exited second group stage as could not score [8|]...against the Germans [:D]
1984 EC: DNQ?
1986 WC: Good team and were desperately unlucky to be cheated out
1988 EC: Group stage exit having lost all three games
1990 WC: Semi-finals but look how lucky we were to get there. 2nd Round Belgium battered us but couldn't score. More Germans.....
1992 EC: Group stage exit
1994 WC: DNQ
1996 EC: At Home, semi-finals and were the better side in the semi but were very lucky to beat Spain in the previous round. Ze Germans spoiled the party again.
1998 WC: 2nd Round

By now the Premiership is starting to gear up. But as can be seen, the results are hardly stellar are they [:(] Oh and our performances pre-1966 were pretty uninspiring too....

[TulliusDetritus]

Personally whilst I agree that we may have too many foreigners in the Premier League (there has to be a balance right?) I do not think this is the reason for our lack of success

The too many foreign players thing has been debated ad nauseam. I mean just everywhere. And it is false. And yet the majority of football fans keep repeating this dogma. And the evidence is just out there...

Do you want a league infested with a swarm of foreign players? Look no further than Spain La Liga. And this since the 90s (The Bosman rule thing).

Could someone explain to me (if this dogma was true) how come they managed to field a golden generation and bag three major international titles? Because if this theory / dogma was true, this is totally impossible.

German (winner in 2010) and Italian (2006) leagues have a lot of foreign players too, go figure.

This is no rocket science: do produce first class players, eventually results might come (or not). But you need these excellent players first. Conditio sine qua non. Except if you're Greece in 2004, an exceptional outcome. Not the rule.

Foreigners will not allow young talents to flourish! they hysterically repeat. Well, real talent, and I mean world-class talent (Ronaldo, Messi, Pirlo, Iniesta) cannot be contained, cannot be ignored. The talent is just obvious [:D] Feel free to ignore it if that's what you want, but foreign scouts have been spotted in the kingdom and they mean business [;)] In ther words, they will not be left to starve. They will flourish and deliver abroad, don't worry, not everyone is crazy.

Said this, the production of world-class talent is a matter of random luck. A good organisation should produce competent players (if possible as good as the ones abroad), that's their ultimate goal.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Personally whilst I agree that we may have too many foreigners in the Premier League (there has to be a balance right?) I do not think this is the reason for our lack of success

warspite1

Not quite sure why you've chosen to quote me rather than Ambassador given that the bulk of my post confirms why too many foreign players is NOT the reason for a lack of success.

[TulliusDetritus]

Yes, not really quoting you. I could have quoted Ambassador the same. Just talking about this football cliché, dogma.

[Orm]

I find this discussion interesting.

And I do not think that the English performance is linked to the number of foreigners in the English league.

And I also find it interesting, that many pundits seems to think that the Russian failure in this Euros is because almost all their players play in the Russian league.

[Orm]

I am suffering today. Abstinence hit me hard. No football today. [:(]