ETA?

[lecrop]

Thanks for the effort fogger [:)]

Eager for pbemplusplusing...

[fogger]

Just to let you know that there were 5 updates in May.

[Karri]

...I don't see nothing.

[bosbes]

Wait! Out there in the distance.... I see something...[;)]

[SMK-at-work]

ORIGINAL: Karri

...I don't see nothing.

If you don't see nothing what is it you do see??

[fogger]

ORIGINAL: Karri

...I don't see nothing.

Sarcasm will get you nowhere. If you do not want updates just say so and I will stop posting. Because I have signed a NDA I am limited in what I can say.

[larryfulkerson]

Because I have signed a NDA I am limited in what I can say.

Me too. +1. But you know..........summer is coming up and then after that
is christmas and I'm not saying anything in particular about anything but if
I was going to try to sell something I'd go for summer break between classes
or maybe christmas, that's always a good time for releases. I have no idea
about much but I know the good times to have a sale during the year. It's
right after the chrismas rush when it's good for used cars. And the dealers
are trying to get last years cars off the lot so they can park the shiny new
year models. Not that you would know but cattle feed has an expiration date
and some unscrupulous dealers will surriptiously slip in an old expired bag
in with a shipment of new ones hoping it won't get caught and nine times
out of ten it isn't. Say the feed dealers.

EDIT: Oh.........and I wanted to say, the exact dates around the christmas rush are
flexible and I guess summer break would be the day after the last day of classes in
May or June, probably May, and the first day of classes in the fall. Sometime
around September. So between May and September would be summer break.
But the christmas rush??? Sometime between just after Halloween and the 24th of
December or so. Your guess is better than mine actually.

[FF_1079]

I understand the need for an NDA, their purposes and the kinds of things that they cover. I have entered into both NDA's and signed non-competes over the course of my life, so I respect your integrity in not revealing what you have been asked to not reveal.

The real question is to the people developing the game and the issuers of this NDA: Why hide the progress and development of this game ( including the stubborn bugs that are hard to squash ) from the interested group of future purchasers who are hungry to hear about it? I just don't understand the logic of telling your potential customers that they don't need or deserve to hear about the games development. "It'll be ready when it's ready" is not acceptable to the world at large, so I'll never understand how software developers are given this kind of leeway. If a plumber, restaurant owner, auto mechanic, etc. spoke to their customers this way, they would get bashed by horrible word of mouth for being rude and unprofessional. Sure people get a bit annoyed when they are told that something will happen on day x and it happens on day z instead, but if there is communication before that conversation, explaining what is going on and why there are delays, people feel confident that they have made the right choice in spending their money.

I honestly expect someone to reply to this post and accuse me of being impatient and rude for bringing this up, as if a future customer has no right to ask questions. Try selling something for a living and see how far you will go with "It'll be ready when it's ready".

I appreciate that Larry Fulkerson is indirectly trying to hint at the release date, which he and some other testers have been thoughtful enough to do - but I am disappointed that the developer/developers are not doing some basic communication about what the hold ups are and some AAR screen shots. It's a remodel of an existing game, it's not like you are creating Unix from scratch, no one is going to steal your IP.

[larryfulkerson]

I appreciate that Larry Fulkerson is indirectly trying to hint at the release date...

I hadn't thought of it as a hint. I thought I was communicating my best guess. I know as much
as you do.

[Lobster]

They have no idea. Seriously. Not a clue. And that isn't something I pulled out of my tailpipe. If Larry were really trying to hint at a date then what he would be saying is they are shooting for summer but Xmas is more realistic.

Don't bother asking for a target date no matter how vague. You are just wasting your time. Looking at the forum and the gaming clubs I'd say it's getting to be too late. No one is playing it anymore. Hopefully when it is completed some real interest will be generated. But it's been 'in development' for several years now. Even for a one man show that's glacial.

[FF_1079]

Well, it has been two weeks and nothing concrete has been posted about upcoming milestone dates, much less an expected release date. I am hoping that the silence about the progress is because the team feels badly at promising a date last year and then running into programming issues. I would say that virtually every person I have ever met has had their butt kicked by the elephant known as "unexpected difficulties", it just happens.

The solution is to never go into "silent running" mode and hope no one notices the train wreck until the problem is resolved. I certainly have taught all my children that the first step is to admit the problem and then get help, feeling badly about it is something that can happen in parallel to solving it. The core audience of a detailed turn based war game are not prone to fits of hyperbolic emotion and teen angst drama, they are details people, they remember things. The kind of detail oriented people that buy games like TOAW are the ones that are the most curious about the changes, and perhaps the most patient at waiting because they hate bugs that ruin their enjoyment.

Yet that curiosity can cut both ways, trying to keep them in the dark without any update info is a sure way to make them feel that the project is stalled, or dying on the vine. A paragraph or two with a screen shot, once a month, is not too much to ask for, and not too much to deliver truthfully. Driving forum traffic is a good way to sell a niche game like TOAW, especially if there is a Steam portal as well - use your happy customers as your future references, but first try to do something to make the early adopters on this forum get excited about spreading the word.

Still looking forward to TOAW IV as soon as it's ready.

[larryfulkerson]

ORIGINAL: FF_1079
Well, it has been two weeks and nothing concrete has been posted about upcoming milestone dates, much less an expected release date. I am hoping that the silence about the progress is because the team feels badly at promising a date last year and then running into programming issues. I would say that virtually every person I have ever met has had their butt kicked by the elephant known as "unexpected difficulties", it just happens.

The solution is to never go into "silent running" mode and hope no one notices the train wreck until the problem is resolved. I certainly have taught all my children that the first step is to admit the problem and then get help, feeling badly about it is something that can happen in parallel to solving it. The core audience of a detailed turn based war game are not prone to fits of hyperbolic emotion and teen angst drama, they are details people, they remember things. The kind of detail oriented people that buy games like TOAW
are the ones that are the most curious about the changes, and perhaps the most patient at waiting because they hate bugs that ruin their enjoyment.

Yet that curiosity can cut both ways, trying to keep them in the dark without any update info is a sure way to make them feel that the project is stalled, or dying on the vine. A paragraph or two with a screen shot, once a month, is not too much to ask for, and not too much to deliver truthfully. Driving forum traffic is a good way to sell a niche game like TOAW, especially if there is a Steam
portal as well - use your happy customers as your future references, but first try to do something to make the early adopters on this
forum get excited about spreading the word.

Still looking forward to TOAW IV as soon as it's ready.

I feel your pain. I've been urging posting at least screenshots but so far it's no go. I think maybe all the players are going to other
games. I hope you don't. Hang in there as long as it takes. TOAW IV is worth it. I think so anyway. Playtesting has never
stopped and I haven't run into a bug in quite a while now. That's a good sign. PM me for a screenshot. Just kidding.

[lecrop]

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

...PM me for a screenshot. Just kidding.

Don't play with our feelings! [;)]

[larryfulkerson]

ORIGINAL: lecrop

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson
...PM me for a screenshot. Just kidding.

Don't play with our feelings!

Yeah, that wasn't called for. Sorry about that. I guess the waiting is starting to
be painful.

[Meyer1]

What I wanna know is who is the genius that think that complete silence is a good way to promote the game. If the devs are too busy to talk, fine, let the testers do it, I'm sure they are dying for.

[Curtis Lemay]

First, recall that Ralph finally had to get a real job some time back because the process was taking too long and he had exhausted his savings. That put him on part time for the project. Things have therefore slowed down. (This is not new information).

Nevertheless, progress continues. We are focused on the UI in the hopes that, once finished, the beta testers can finally be invited in. But it is a large task and no one can guess how long it will take to complete even that. After that there are still game features left to finish up. And, of course, bugs crop up unpredictably - temporarily diverting Ralph from UI work.

Unfortunately, the fact that the UI is not finished yet prevents posting of screenshots. As mentioned before, first impressions are critical, so the artwork must be finished and coded into the game before it can be revealed to the public. Sorry, but that's the way it is.

[Lobster]

This whole process has been a Greek tragedy. Tragic plot based on myths of archaic epics.

[fogger]

So you are prepared to pay good money for a game that has bugs in it?

YES it has been a long process and YES we would all like to have had TOAW 4 a couple of years ago. But we live in a real world were we do not always get what we want.

Re-read Bob's post above.

STOP being so negative and look at the positive side. The game is being worked on as we speak or would you prefer Ralph and Bob and all the other working on it to say "up yours", we have had enough and go off and do other things. I know that Bob loves golf.

Slitherine Ltd is in business to make money. Do you think for one second that they would leave the game sitting on the shelf once the bugs are fixed. They want to sell the game so that they can get a return on their investments.


For your information there were 9 updates in April, 5 in May and 2 so far in June. Things are happening.


When it is finished TOAW 4 WILL BE GREAT. I know it is a pain waiting but hang in there and try not to be so negative.

[Ratzki]

I know the screenshot issue has been dealt with before, but I feel that something, anything really, would hold at bay some of the flames of anticipation.

[larryfulkerson]

I know the screenshot issue has been dealt with before, but I feel that something, anything really, would hold at bay some of
the flames of anticipation.

Well then, how about an update on my PBEM with Thomas? We're playtesting Thomas's new scenario Pacific at War and this
time I'm the Allies and we're on turn 237 or so. We're doing half-week turns and we're doing the whole war so it's been ongoing for
the last two months or so. We can usually produce something like two or three turns per day. The story of the game so far is when
I get another carrier I traditionally rush it out to the front lines where I try to stage an assault on someplace or other and Thomas has
his airpower go after my ships instead of protecting the beaches so much and I lose the CV component of my carrier. D'oh. So now
I'm down to my last carrier and it's early '44 and I don't have the shipping to challenge Thomas anywhere important so it's quiet right
now. I've got about 40% of the fleet in a port getting repaired for the final assault. I'm leaning toward Tarawa this time. Thomas
tells me he's down to his last 3 BB's and so I'm hoping to be able to overpower his fleet with a lucky strike from my one remaining
carrier and then I can spend '44 and part of '45 trying to get close to Okinawa. Thomas and I have figured out that Okinawa is an
easier target than Tokyo and it's capture ends the war just like a capture of Tokyo would. I tried to grab Java right under his nose
and he moved every airplane he owns into the area and sank so many ships that I had to retreat. That was about 6 months ago
game time. He's got so many planes that I can't break into territory that he owns that has good defenses, like Java. So I'm
leaning toward maybe trying to grab Tarawa this time. I'm going to leap into the possibilities just as soon as some more of my ships
are up to 90% readiness at least. Most of them are in the low 70's right now so it'll be another three months or so of game time
before I'll be ready. Meanwhile there's lots of air-to-air over the Port Moresby area. We're squabbling over some real estate that
I don't particularly want just to have somewhere to fight the war. I'm thinking I can win a war of attrition.

The reason I'm not doing so well is that I tend to be too aggressive and attack too early before I'm really ready, with too few ships
and way too few planes. One carrier's worth of fighters isn't enough CAP to keep the Jap fighters off my ships. I'm outnumbered
in the air, always. I suspect he has the entire KB still intact, hiding it from the war, to be used around Okinawa in the final push.
It's looking like I'm going to lose this game. Of all the games Thomas and I have played I remember beating him only once. Which
is understandable since he's the author of these scenarios and knows them like the back of his hand.

There was a program about 18 months ago in game time, where I had the Marine Air Groups ( MAG ) parked in the Aleutians and
they were running some low-losses air raids on Kiska not so much to cause losses but to gain in proficiency. There were several
units that were at 100% proficiency when the program was ended due to the need for the aircraft out in the "field". And the eskimo
women had learned how to play poker and were getting good at separating the younger pilots from their money. It was time to
go.

I've run into a parking problem in the Port Moresby area. There's three airfields in the Port Moresby city hexes and there's another
airfield at Milne Bay and somehow I captured Buna at one point but I think Thomas owns it again now. It had an airfield and so I
could park about a dozen fighters there. The problem is I have about four dozen planes to be deployed so I've been rotating the
tired ones out and replacing them with fresh ones each turn. The Hellcats are out already and they are starting to replace the
late model P-38's I've been relying on the last two years or so. The P-40's are parked in Tasmania and New Zealand and don't
see much of the war anymore. They are obsolete now. Flying them just gets good pilots killed.

There was a front line in Burma where there was some pushing and shoving on the part of the Allies but the fighting got into tough
terrain and the losses began to pile up and so the attacking trailed off and now it's a quiet part of the front where there's no progress
being made by either side. I need the later model aircraft in India and Burma but there's no way to fly them to Ceylon, the traditional
jumping point that used to reachable from Broome but now with half-week turns the ferry radius is cut down to so little that that route
is no longer open and there's a need to carry aircraft as cargo. We'd rather not give shipchasers a carrier ability just so it can
carry a plane so we're hoping for a version of TOAW that will have little ships called subchasers, able to carry aircraft as cargo
It's the only way to get aircraft from Australia to India. The character of the game will change when that happens and more
playtesting will definatly be needed. I hope to be on one side or the other when the testing starts.

Thomas has produced about half a dozen smaller scenario's that cover just one area for a specific period of time. Like Guadalcanal,
and Midway, and the Battle of Santa Cruz and two more that I don't remember the name of right off the top of my head. We've
already tested them and it appears that the Midway scenario is unbalanced......the Japs win 95% of the time. Which is what real
life should have turned out as. We got in some very lucky shots at the right times and it turned the tide. But most of the time the
Japs don't bomb Midway, preferring to scuttle the Allied ships first and the rest was almost history.

The version of TOAW IV we're testing hasn't run into any bugs in quite a while now and I haven't posted any bug reports since
about.......well, I don't remember when the last bug report was posted. I remember that I posted it but I don't remember the verbage
or the situation or anything. It couldn't have been very important then. I'd like to see new updated graphics for the game map so
that the game looks more professional and less DOS-like but that's just me. We're told the UI isn't the final version yet so I can't
post any screenshots but I think that what we have now is much better than the old style control buttons. It's more intuitive and the
game mechanics don't get in the way of game play as much anymore. It plays faster than the old version.

The naval rules in TOAW IV has opened up the possibility of naval scenario's now. PAW is fantastic. I love it. The map
is beautiful and it's definately turning out to be playable. Thomas always wins so I'm not sure how balanced it is yet but I've seen
Thomas win as either side. Make that both sides.

Bob Cross has been productive and has written some naval scenarios himself. They have proved more than useful in testing. Short
scenarios that stand on their own, not very balanced always. His Pearl Harbor scenario almost always ends with the Japs
winning, as you might imagine.

Things are looking up around here. I'm glad to be one of the playtesters and doing what I'm doing. Wish you were here.