Endurance, Durability, and Range for A/C

[PaxMondo]

Ok, noob question, but what is the difference between the three? Some examples to help the slow at thought.

Thanks!

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Ok, noob question, but what is the difference between the three? Some examples to help the slow at thought.

Thanks!

Endurance = how many minutes the plane can fly
Durability = how mauch damage the plane can take
Range = the result of a function involving Endurance and Cruising Speed

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: treespider


Endurance = how many minutes the plane can fly
Durability = how mauch damage the plane can take
Range = the result of a function involving Endurance and Cruising Speed

So, range is just a computed result of endurance and speed? So, at least to me, who care about endurance (except as it relates to range)? You just care about range.

That's what was getting me. I couldn't figure out another independent variable and wasn't sure which one was dependent. And I couldn't find anything in the manual ...

Thanks for your response.

[n01487477]

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Ok, noob question, but what is the difference between the three? Some examples to help the slow at thought.

Thanks!

Endurance = how many minutes the plane can fly
Durability = how mauch damage the plane can take
Range = the result of a function involving Endurance and Cruising Speed

Well (range and endurance) should be but, a mod and infact the GC does not always adhere to these calculations, as they can be inputted separately, with no relevance to cruise speed and endurance. The editor I believe should calculate these fields, but it doesn't. (And yes I am taking into account nautical miles)

--Damian--

[timtom]

Endurance is a redundant carry-over from WitP and has no function regarding range computation in WitP:AE.

[n01487477]

ORIGINAL: timtom

Endurance is a redundant carry-over from WitP and has no function regarding range computation in WitP:AE.

Except when you remove the numbers from the far right side of the editor ... then it does re. max range

--Damian--

[treespider]

Ahh silly me...probably for another venue - but why are we sucking up resources with the endurance data field?

[FOW]

ORIGINAL: timtom

Endurance is a redundant carry-over from WitP and has no function regarding range computation in WitP:AE.

So are you saying that endurance has no bearing on the function of the nav search and ASW search routines for aircraft and CAP?
If I set a reduced range for either searches I would expect more 'loiter' time in a specific hex increasing probability of TF detection. With CAP , if range = zero, i thought the endurance function would be used to determine time in air and time between landings to refuel etc.

I'm obviously wrong in these assumptions if endurance is redundant.

[Pascal_slith]

ORIGINAL: treespider

Ahh silly me...probably for another venue - but why are we sucking up resources with the endurance data field?

Because it has created confusion among the ranks! [:(]

If it's a simple carryover from WitP and is not used at all anywhere in WitP AE, then fine, end of discussion. I gather this what timtom was saying earlier.

[Dili]

Sorry to resurrect this topic but is it confirmed what timtom says that endurance data is not in use by Witp AE? So can i put 0 Zero in it instead of doing some calc?

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: Dili

Sorry to resurrect this topic but is it confirmed what timtom says that endurance data is not in use by Witp AE? So can i put 0 Zero in it instead of doing some calc?

Don't do that.

Timtom did not say the endurance data is not used by WITP:AE.

In AE the data in the endurance field is not automatically fed into an algorithm which determines aircraft range. With AE there are now separate data fields for normal, extended and maximum range and the data for each of these fields is now manually inputted by the scenario designer. None of these three aircraft ranges are determined automatically based on what is inputted into the endurance field.

Alfred

[LoBaron]

What Alfred said.

Endurance determines the timespan an aircraft can stay airborne by calculating fuel consumption at certain power settings against fuel available.
Range determines how far the plane can fly by considering endurance@cruise power setting and cruise speed.

So in reality those values are directly related to each other.

That they are logically unrelated in WitP AE (you can edit them independently) is no indication that the endurance value isn´t used.

[Macclan5]

Thank you all.. another "perfect learning moment" [8D]

[Dili]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: Dili

Sorry to resurrect this topic but is it confirmed what timtom says that endurance data is not in use by Witp AE? So can i put 0 Zero in it instead of doing some calc?

Don't do that.

Timtom did not say the endurance data is not used by WITP:AE.

In AE the data in the endurance field is not automatically fed into an algorithm which determines aircraft range. With AE there are now separate data fields for normal, extended and maximum range and the data for each of these fields is now manually inputted by the scenario designer. None of these three aircraft ranges are determined automatically based on what is inputted into the endurance field.

Alfred

Thanks. I see i should have read more carefuly what timtom said.
Is it possible to know how to calculate the endurance? normal range(or other range?)/cruise speed = minutes or for example many aircraft have a loiter speed where they don't have as much range but get more time in station.
I suppose the later one is the reason for this data field since otherwise the game could made the calculation itself.

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: Dili

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: Dili

Sorry to resurrect this topic but is it confirmed what timtom says that endurance data is not in use by Witp AE? So can i put 0 Zero in it instead of doing some calc?

Don't do that.

Timtom did not say the endurance data is not used by WITP:AE.

In AE the data in the endurance field is not automatically fed into an algorithm which determines aircraft range. With AE there are now separate data fields for normal, extended and maximum range and the data for each of these fields is now manually inputted by the scenario designer. None of these three aircraft ranges are determined automatically based on what is inputted into the endurance field.

Alfred

Thanks. I see i should have read more carefuly what timtom said.
Is it possible to know how to calculate the endurance? normal range(or other range?)/cruise speed = minutes or for example many aircraft have a loiter speed where they don't have as much range but get more time in station.
I suppose the later one is the reason for this data field since otherwise the game could made the calculation itself.

Actually it makes sense not to correlate those values in the database.

Engine fuel consumption varies widely over the different power settings. Fuel consumption on loiter is significantly lower than on any usable cruise setting.

In addition to the above fuel consumption per power setting varies throughout the different engines - so you would not find an applicable rule of thumb there - whereas range is varying not only with cruise power fuel consumption but also with airframe attributes ans AoA.

So you would need to sort this out not only per type of engine used but also take into account the airframe the engine is used on.

[Lokasenna]

I'm pretty sure the endurance value comes into the play when the aircraft see combat, yes? Particular fighter vs. fighter. I've always assumed, based on no data or info from devs at all, that the "Plane turns away" and those other messages (including "heads for cloud cover", etc.) mean the plane has run out of endurance or ops. Or "failed" the die roll/check against endurance/ops remaining and decided that plane was done fighting.

[Dili]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

ORIGINAL: Dili

Actually it makes sense not to correlate those values in the database.

Engine fuel consumption varies widely over the different power settings. Fuel consumption on loiter is significantly lower than on any usable cruise setting.

In addition to the above fuel consumption per power setting varies throughout the different engines - so you would not find an applicable rule of thumb there - whereas range is varying not only with cruise power fuel consumption but also with airframe attributes ans AoA.

So you would need to sort this out not only per type of engine used but also take into account the airframe the engine is used on.

That is my assumption too, see my last phrase in comment you cited.
This is a guess but i think for cap and patrol when one does not reach the maximum range it triggers the endurance time.

So a PBY(or a fighter) to half range patrol, the remaining range that it has is converted to time since it does not need the most economical speed for range, it employs the loiter time remaining, there must be some conversion for example, when player define 50% range then it uses the 50% in endurance time. There is a fudge because the game does not have a way to know what is that loiter economic speed , maybe it just calculates a percentage of cruise speed that is given to maximize range.

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: Dili

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: Dili

Sorry to resurrect this topic but is it confirmed what timtom says that endurance data is not in use by Witp AE? So can i put 0 Zero in it instead of doing some calc?

Don't do that.

Timtom did not say the endurance data is not used by WITP:AE.

In AE the data in the endurance field is not automatically fed into an algorithm which determines aircraft range. With AE there are now separate data fields for normal, extended and maximum range and the data for each of these fields is now manually inputted by the scenario designer. None of these three aircraft ranges are determined automatically based on what is inputted into the endurance field.

Alfred

Thanks. I see i should have read more carefuly what timtom said.
Is it possible to know how to calculate the endurance? normal range(or other range?)/cruise speed = minutes or for example many aircraft have a loiter speed where they don't have as much range but get more time in station.
I suppose the later one is the reason for this data field since otherwise the game could made the calculation itself.

For AE, to manually input aircraft endurance data into the field, apply this formula.

Endurance = (Max Range/Cruise Speed)*(60)*(1.15)

Aircraft Endurance is an input into several AE algorithms, none of which are specifically detailed by the devs. Areas which are influenced to some degree by it include:

• search range (and in particular the on map drawing of arcs)
• air coordination (in an abstract and indirect manner)
• air combat (again abstract and indirect)

The endurance value is not critical in any area and quite difficult for a player to tweek it to their benefit in their tactical play. Combined with the big change from classical WITP where it did automatically determine aircraft model ranges whereas in AE it does not, is why the short answer given in the past by devs to posters who wanted to use it as per classical WITP, was to not worry about it.

Alfred

[Dili]

Thanks. Alfred do you know why is it employed "Max Range" which is not an operational combat range - does not have weapons so no ordnance penalization regarding range - while supposedly employed for combat flights where that penalization should exist?