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GaryChildress
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RE: Alligator

Post by GaryChildress »

ORIGINAL: Zap

When our society can't except that there are accidents where no blame can be pointed at any party. It has a lot to do with a litigious society. Making someone responsible so they can pay. There are still grey areas where no one is to blame. This is on of them a tragic accident. t

From the vantage point of my armchair it doesn't sound to me like anyone is directly to blame either. However, in my opinion if the parents were to choose to sue, that is their business, not mine. I wasn't there. I would then leave it to the courts to decide whether anyone is to blame or not.
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Greybriar
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RE: Alligator

Post by Greybriar »

I really didn't expect the statements in the posts after mine. Apparently not only are parental skills lacking in those parents, but the lack of those skills is accepted by a number of members of this forum. This was no accident. It resulted because the parents were negligent. If that two-year-old had been properly cared for he would be alive today.

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Grim.Reaper
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RE: Alligator

Post by Grim.Reaper »

ORIGINAL: Greybriar

I really didn't expect the statements in the posts after mine. Apparently not only are parental skills lacking in those parents, but the lack of those skills is accepted by a number of members of this forum. This was no accident. It resulted because the parents were negligent. If that two-year-old had been properly cared for he would be alive today.


Were you present? Or is all your information from media? I am willing to guess that you don't possibly have all the information to pass judgement on the family. Was there signs there? Yes, but do we know the family saw them? The signs said no swimming, they were wading in the water in less than a foot of water, which is not swimming. Do we know the parents understood alligators were dangerous at that spot? Exactly how many people have been killed by alligators at that spot at that resort? Guessing none.

I congratulate you on being the perfect parent, but I am guessing every parent has been in a situation where their child may have been unintentionally putting their kid at risk.

At the end of the day, it is tragic and I can't imagine the pain the parents are going through...especially after unsuccessfully trying to wrestle the child from the predator. Could everyone (i.e. parents, Disney, etc.) involved done things differently, sure with hindsight...
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british exil
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RE: Alligator

Post by british exil »

Greybrair, I'd love you to come over and try and tell my parents the same thing. I'm not sure if my dad would let you finish the sentence. My brothers accident was 35 years ago, he was 9.

I am a parent and there is no such thing as 100% protection. My son (3) can fall over and injure himself while I am a metre away in the same room. On a playground I can be 5m away and he might fall off the slide.
I know how fast accidents can happen. I know that a child needs room to explore, to understand our surroundings.
If I am being negligent for not holding his hand whilst playing and developing, then I am, guilty.
Am I negligent for leaving him alone in a room, while I fetch him a drink from the kitchen?


The parents who lost their child, were probably not the first to let their children stand in the or near the water. They might have not even thought about alligators in the theme park, who would. They were on the beach of an artificial lake, the sister was in a playpen and the son was wadding in the water. The parents were nearby, as they reacted to the situation. A normal family scene.
Disneyworld is a place where you are meant to enjoy family life, forget the outside world. Enjoying the make believe world and forgetting the dangers outside of the park.


It is very easy to judge, while having information in hindsight. It is easy to judge if one has never experienced something similar. It is easy to judge when one is not a parent. A child will always a child to the parent, be the child young or adult, a loving parent will always worry about certain situations in life that their children go through.

Mat
"It is not enough to expect a man to pay for the best, you must also give him what he pays for." Alfred Dunhill

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Greybriar
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RE: Alligator

Post by Greybriar »

Ever hear the expression "The Terrible Twos"? Two-year-old children are at the worst age--they are into everything. I remember my grandmother holding the hands of her grandchildren when they were that age. I remember giving my sister a bath when she was about two. I needed a towel to dry her off and ran to get one. When I returned there where little white islands floating in the bath water--she had eaten the bar of soap and threw it up. Another time I left her at the kitchen table in a chair while I ran to fetch a tool my father needed and when I returned she was finger-painting with some mustard that had been left on the table. That tabletop had a yellow cast to it ever after that. (I was the oldest and I babysat my younger sisters and brother all the time.) Kids are quick, especially at that age. I knew two sets of parents--one set in Seattle and another in a Kansas City suburb--who left a child in its high chair and returned to find their child dead; the kids had slipped down in their high chairs and strangled.

So I read the story about this two-year-old who was carried off by an alligator and drowned. "No Swimming" sign posted. Father close enough to reach the alligator before it swam away with the child. Someone posted that the "No Swimming" sign didn't apply because the water wasn't deep enough to swim in. Grief stricken parents who will probably carry the memory of their dead child to their graves. Someone here posted about the possibility of the parents suing Disney. Will that bring their boy back? Assuage their consciences? Relieve their feelings of guilt and remorse?

I think the parents screwed up; they ignored the "No Swimming" and weren't paying enough attention to what their son was doing. Do I think they should be punished for neglecting their parental responsibilities? No. I think they've been through enough already.
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GaryChildress
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RE: Alligator

Post by GaryChildress »

ORIGINAL: Greybriar

I think the parents screwed up...

In the final analysis I guess we're all entitled to armchair speculation, regardless of how morbid it may seem. I had an uncle who used to say the darndest things at family gatherings. Sometimes you didn't know whether to laugh or else pretend you weren't related. But we still loved him. [:)]
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Grim.Reaper
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RE: Alligator

Post by Grim.Reaper »

ORIGINAL: Greybriar
"No Swimming" sign posted. Father close enough to reach the alligator before it swam away with the child. Someone posted that the "No Swimming" sign didn't apply because the water wasn't deep enough to swim in.

Assuming (and we don't know) the parents even saw the sign, everyone makes different risk decisions based on their interpretation of the best information they have at the moment. Does "No Swimming" automatically translate in someone's mind "Don't go into the water because there are dangerous creatures in it that could harm your children"? I don't think so...in many cases "No Swimming" means people don't want you going into their water, usually because they have no supervision or they don't want you to mess up their property. Now don't get me wrong, a rule is a rule and everyone should follow it regardless of the reasoning, but let's face it we all have made decisions like that before.

In this case, let's assume the parents did see the "No Swimming" sign. I am guessing they did not connect walking in shallow water as swimming, they felt they had the right supervision with the father close by, and I am guessing they might not have processed the reason for the "No Swimming" was because of dangerous animals could come out of the water and harm their family....especially since to the best of my knowledge this has never happened at Disney before. So right or wrong, they judged the risk as low based on the best information they had.

Again, if we judge a parent as being good or bad based on always following EVERY rule, I have to imagine all parents would be labled as bad parents for going against a rule at least once in their life. So yes technically the parents should have obeyed the sign regardless (assuming they saw the sign) but in reality we all have made decisions like that in our lives.

At the end of the day, the most important thing is the tragic circumstances of the child losing its life regardless of how it happened...although each side could have done things differently in hindsight, I find it tough to assign blame because of the circumstances.
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Greybriar
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RE: Alligator

Post by Greybriar »

I agree the wording on the sign was inappropriate; it should have been of the old fashioned variety: STAY OUT OF THE WATER. But regardless of the way it was phrased it should have aroused the parents' level of awareness as to a possible danger. Unfortunately it did not.

We all make mistakes but nearly always they are of little or no concern and we learn from them and move on. The parents made a mistake. Unfortunately theirs was a deadly one.

This is an internet forum and one primarily devoted to PC gaming. But if my posts in this thread will help make parents just a tiny bit more alert and attentive while caring for their children, I will have succeeded in my purpose by posting in it.
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GaryChildress
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RE: Alligator

Post by GaryChildress »

ORIGINAL: Greybriar

I agree the wording on the sign was inappropriate; it should have been of the old fashioned variety: STAY OUT OF THE WATER. But regardless of the way it was phrased it should have aroused the parents' level of awareness as to a possible danger. Unfortunately it did not.

We all make mistakes but nearly always they are of little or no concern and we learn from them and move on. The parents made a mistake. Unfortunately theirs was a deadly one.

This is an internet forum and one primarily devoted to PC gaming. But if my posts in this thread will help make parents just a tiny bit more alert and attentive while caring for their children, I will have succeeded in my purpose by posting in it.

Yeah. I suppose, in light of this tragedy, an extra word of caution is also in order for all the parents out there. However, at the same time, I don’t think we want to discourage parents too much by overburdening the institution of parenthood with too much guilt and responsibility. Someone has to nurture the next generation. The main reason I’ve never sought to have children is that I don’t think I could keep up with all the demands of being a “good” parent. But just think if everyone thought like me. The human race would become extinct! Praise to all the brave souls who undertake parenthood!

All in all, with respect to this situation though, I personally think that any father who would jump into a lake and wrestle with an alligator on behalf of his son is probably a good father. My hat is off to him. And my condolences are with him and his wife.

[edited because of typo]
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Grim.Reaper
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RE: Alligator

Post by Grim.Reaper »

ORIGINAL: Greybriar

I agree the wording on the sign was inappropriate; it should have been of the old fashioned variety: STAY OUT OF THE WATER. But regardless of the way it was phrased it should have aroused the parents' level of awareness as to a possible danger. Unfortunately it did not.

If the parents saw the sign, I am sure it did arouse their senses to the degree of risk they thought existed. The parents were near by and the child was in minimal water so the parents likely thought they were providing the right level of supervision based on the perceived understanding of the risk. If the sign said "stay out of the water because of dangerous animals" and the parents still allowed the child to be in the water, then I fully agree. It likely does us all no good in second guessing the parents since none of us was present and don't have any understanding of what they were thinking at the time.
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RE: Alligator

Post by GaryChildress »

ORIGINAL: Grim.Reaper

ORIGINAL: Greybriar

I agree the wording on the sign was inappropriate; it should have been of the old fashioned variety: STAY OUT OF THE WATER. But regardless of the way it was phrased it should have aroused the parents' level of awareness as to a possible danger. Unfortunately it did not.

If the parents saw the sign, I am sure it did arouse their senses to the degree of risk they thought existed. The parents were near by and the child was in minimal water so the parents likely thought they were providing the right level of supervision based on the perceived understanding of the risk. If the sign said "stay out of the water because of dangerous animals" and the parents still allowed the child to be in the water, then I fully agree. It likely does us all no good in second guessing the parents since none of us was present and don't have any understanding of what they were thinking at the time.

+1 [:)]
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Greybriar
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RE: Alligator

Post by Greybriar »

For what it's worth, here's

[center]The Sign[/center]

[center]Image[/center]

[center]The New Sign[/center]

[center]Image[/center]

And a news story about the new signs.

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RE: Alligator

Post by warspite1 »

Interestingly the article confirms that there was an incident in the 1980's that almost led to tragedy as well as another where a 7-ft alligator appeared near the beach.

If that sign you posted is the only one, and there are no other warnings in the hotel then I simply fail to understand how Disney (and I have no wish to attack Disney as I love the place) cannot be held at fault here.

If the above is all they had, then the warnings were inappropriate to the situation, and to think that people won't go in water and that animal behaviour is entirely controllable by humans is complacent and hubris.
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Orm
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RE: Alligator

Post by Orm »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Interestingly the article confirms that there was an incident in the 1980's that almost led to tragedy as well as another where a 7-ft alligator appeared near the beach.

If that sign you posted is the only one, and there are no other warnings in the hotel then I simply fail to understand how Disney (and I have no wish to attack Disney as I love the place) cannot be held at fault here.

If the above is all they had, then the warnings were inappropriate to the situation, and to think that people won't go in water and that animal behaviour is entirely controllable by humans is complacent and hubris.
As always, I agree with My Lord, Warspite1.
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Grim.Reaper
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RE: Alligator

Post by Grim.Reaper »

ORIGINAL: Greybriar

For what it's worth, here's

[center]The Sign[/center]

[center]Image[/center]

[center]The New Sign[/center]

[center]Image[/center]

And a news story about the new signs.


I think this confirms what I have been trying to say. That sign does not convey the right level of risk, assuming the parents even saw it. Gives no meaningful information for them to properly assess the situation. I know just semantics, but it just says no swimming (even a picture of the activity that is not allowed) which some people may not translate to stay out of the water in its entirety. If the new sign was there at the time and the parents ignored that type of warning, then I could certainly see the blame landing on their shoulders. Sure, maybe even with the old sign they may have technically broken a rule, but I think it's easy to understand how they might not have recognized the danger.

I can also see now that maybe Disney does deserve more blame than I thought since the warning sign grossly under communicates the true risk, which I am guessing was purposeful to not scare the guests. All around, remains a sad event.
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Zap
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RE: Alligator

Post by Zap »

Signs will signify the activities not allowed. Your right, I've been in locations where a sign specifically says no swimming/no wading. If that was what Disney prohibited it should have said so clearly
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Greybriar
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RE: Alligator

Post by Greybriar »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

....If that sign you posted is the only one, and there are no other warnings in the hotel then I simply fail to understand how Disney (and I have no wish to attack Disney as I love the place) cannot be held at fault here.

If the above is all they had, then the warnings were inappropriate to the situation, and to think that people won't go in water and that animal behaviour is entirely controllable by humans is complacent and hubris.

"There are "No Swimming" signs at the lagoon, but there are no warning signs about alligators." "There are "no swimming" signs outside Disney's Grand Floridian resort." Source

I think parents have been lulled into inattentiveness over the years. Everything is supposed to be as safe as being in a padded cell. We are so civilized now that dangers aren't supposed to exist. I don't know how far that two-year-old had wandered from his parents, but it was obviously too far--help for him arrived too late.
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Grim.Reaper
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RE: Alligator

Post by Grim.Reaper »

ORIGINAL: Greybriar

ORIGINAL: warspite1

....If that sign you posted is the only one, and there are no other warnings in the hotel then I simply fail to understand how Disney (and I have no wish to attack Disney as I love the place) cannot be held at fault here.

If the above is all they had, then the warnings were inappropriate to the situation, and to think that people won't go in water and that animal behaviour is entirely controllable by humans is complacent and hubris.

"There are "No Swimming" signs at the lagoon, but there are no warning signs about alligators." "There are "no swimming" signs outside Disney's Grand Floridian resort." Source

I think parents have been lulled into inattentiveness over the years. Everything is supposed to be as safe as being in a padded cell. We are so civilized now that dangers aren't supposed to exist. I don't know how far that two-year-old had wandered from his parents, but it was obviously too far--help for him arrived too late.

No offense, but the father could have been right next to the kid holding his hand and there is a good chance he still could not have done much to prevent the alligator from taking the kid unless he was a professional alligator handler. Big, quick, powerful animal...not many people stand a chance.
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RE: Alligator

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Grim.Reaper

ORIGINAL: Greybriar

ORIGINAL: warspite1

....If that sign you posted is the only one, and there are no other warnings in the hotel then I simply fail to understand how Disney (and I have no wish to attack Disney as I love the place) cannot be held at fault here.

If the above is all they had, then the warnings were inappropriate to the situation, and to think that people won't go in water and that animal behaviour is entirely controllable by humans is complacent and hubris.

"There are "No Swimming" signs at the lagoon, but there are no warning signs about alligators." "There are "no swimming" signs outside Disney's Grand Floridian resort." Source

I think parents have been lulled into inattentiveness over the years. Everything is supposed to be as safe as being in a padded cell. We are so civilized now that dangers aren't supposed to exist. I don't know how far that two-year-old had wandered from his parents, but it was obviously too far--help for him arrived too late.

No offense, but the father could have been right next to the kid holding his hand and there is a good chance he still could not have done much to prevent the alligator from taking the kid unless he was a professional alligator handler. Big, quick, powerful animal...not many people stand a chance.
warspite1

Quite. We do not know what the parents were or weren't doing and, given what we know about the warning signs, this is not really the point.

There was a potential for a tragedy to happen - a tragedy that had happened before (although thankfully not fatally). And that fact was seemingly withheld by means of appropriate warnings not being given.

What matters here is whether the parents - any parents - were fed sufficient information on which to base a decision about their child's safety. No Swimming (and a picture of a swimmer being crossed out) would, to most people, mean No Swimming. It simply does not mean "Do not enter the water" it does not state "Do not paddle" and it certainly does not warn people, who may come from all over, that there may be alligators in the water.
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Grim.Reaper
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RE: Alligator

Post by Grim.Reaper »

Agreed....after seeing the actual sign, it sure seems that Disney could have posted much more specific warnings, especially since people come from all over the world and may not understand implicit dangers known to the area.
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