Fixing GD 1938

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ernieschwitz
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RE: Fixing GD 1938

Post by ernieschwitz »

ORIGINAL: SRA

First of all, I'm GREATLY impressed with what you have done with this mod.
My comment is not actually something that is wrong with the game, just a wish that for me would make it even better.

The map: for me personally, I would like a larger map. Maybe when you first started designing, your size was as big as ATG allowed, but Tom Weber's WaW for ATG is a fair amount larger than that for GD 1938. For me, the larger map allows more fun/flexibility with tactics.

Now I understand that expanding the map would be quite difficult, so I have no expectations that anybody would even want to put the effort in. I just thought I'd at least mention it.
But even with the pretty crowded European map in GD 1938, you've created quite a great scenario. Congratulations.

Thanks for the kind words! :)

As for the map. This subject has come up quite a few times. Sometimes in discussions between me and Alexandre, sometimes brought up by the players.

Let me start at the beginning. In the beginning the map was designed for AT:WW2, so before ATG. It was a far worse version of the game than is now, but the map was ok. It couldn't be bigger for two reasons. First of all, I did not know how to make maps bigger than 200 hexes wide (which I do now), and the game included up to 52 AIs which have a hard time dealing with bigger maps, especially cause Each regime takes up RAM, as well as the AI does. So for that reason, for a long time, the map was fixed in stone, as for size.

I did once the AI was removed, and the "Faux-regimes" put in place (the system that makes the neutrals work the way they do), strongly consider making a bigger map. In fact I put together a damn good try. I managed to make the outline of everything on a 280 wide map, with every city and terrain rethought, for every country in Asia and Europe and Africa, save the Soviet Union. However the sheer amount of time needed to be put in to make this map, was almost defeating by itself. So the project died.

Most recently Bombur and I talked over the subject again. Firstly we agreed that we had to take in consideration that the map graphics had to be less RAM consuming than some of the sets out there. So the Realist mod, which the game currently uses, would probably be the best.

Secondly we had some discussions on map scale, and we agreed that bigger is better. But we also agreed that it would be a pity to include areas that are mostly unused, and big, cause those are timeconsuming to make, yet serve no purpose, and eat up more RAM. RAM is still a consideration cause we are using so many SFTs that it litterally has not been tested before, and there is no telling when and if the system crashes. And when I speak of RAM, it is the RAM that ATG can access, not the amount of total RAM on your computer. I think that limit is 2 GB.

In any case, we came to much the same conclussion that tweber came to in WAW for ATG. That perhaps a map scaled in different sizes different places was the most practical. So in as sense we were slowly coming round to that fact that WAW for ATG got it right. While this is not as pleasing to the senses, there just is something more pleasing to the exact picture of the globe, rather than something warped. It would also mean different air ranges in different areas of the world, and possibly duplicates of landscape types, that just had the effect of being "bigger"...

In any case, it has stalled on the sheer amount of work it would be to do so. There are so many lines of code that too need to be gone over, that we might as well make a GD 1938 v.3 (The first being the one before this one, and the second being the one played currently). A complete recoding might as well entail alot of other changes. It was with that in mind we sort of made this thread.

In a sense we are waiting to see if there is enough backing for us to redo it completely. With the news that VR designs was working on the new baby siblnig to ATG, Shadow Empire, that too gave us reason to pause... perhaps a new GD 1938 could be made for that?

That is the list of thoughts we have had, regarding map size.


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RE: Fixing GD 1938

Post by Twotribes »

Wish 88 flak was added to the game just a pet peeve.
Favoritism is alive and well here.
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ernieschwitz
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RE: Fixing GD 1938

Post by ernieschwitz »

ORIGINAL: Twotribes
Wish 88 flak was added to the game just a pet peeve.

If you have a word with Bombur I am sure he could add it :)
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RE: Fixing GD 1938

Post by ernieschwitz »

quote:

Version GD1938v221y.atzip - STILL ;)
I think most people do not use Supply Trucks for supply units ... or they do not care of wasting supplies ;)

PS: Anyway I would just set it as 20 carried supplies and 5 consumed (5x carried by Horses)
Thanks for reporting. I think I will notify Bombur and ask him, if it is WAD, if not I will ask him to correct it.

I have asked Bombur and his response was that they are not meant to be used to carry supplies, more they are a way to transfer stuff using landcap, to non-rail connected hexes. So strictly speaking their role is to stay in the HQs and transfer things out. They were made before the TO&E system, and may well be have made obsolette by it. Bombur has asked me to convey the idea that perhaps we could return landcap to ordinary trucks, and do away with supply trucks.
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RE: Fixing GD 1938

Post by Twotribes »

Actually unless one has supply trucks in the hqs one can not transfer effectively to units more then a couple hexes from the Hqs in question. Sure returning stuff to hqs seems to be free but not outgoing. I have had to build and deploy supply trucks to my army hqs since the to and e thing.
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RE: Fixing GD 1938

Post by gazfun »

I noticed as a Russian Player I cant get to make Medium Tanks II at all. Generally so far so good
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RE: Fixing GD 1938

Post by cpdeyoung »

The new victory conditions make this a different game indeed. There is no need to fill the patterns of the real World War Two.

As the American player I see so many possible paths this may take. We have a strong German Player in IronDuke1955, but we still have not seen an attack. Even China and Japan are at peace.

Once war begins, if it does, we may see alliances forming up, but they might well be flexible. The ever continuing war in Orwell's "1984" comes to mind. It would not surprise me to see wild perturbations once multiple players have 35 VP. It is very interesting, and it is not a WW2 simulation.

Chuck
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RE: Fixing GD 1938

Post by Bombur »

ORIGINAL: gazfun

I noticed as a Russian Player I cant get to make Medium Tanks II at all. Generally so far so good
That´s because I want them to shift from BT-7 to T-34´s, so they were given Medium Tank II tank at game start but cannot build them.
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Khanti
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RE: Fixing GD 1938

Post by Khanti »

ORIGINAL: ernieschwitz
ORIGINAL: SRA

(...)

The map: for me personally, I would like a larger map. Maybe when you first started designing, your size was as big as ATG allowed, but Tom Weber's WaW for ATG is a fair amount larger than that for GD 1938. For me, the larger map allows more fun/flexibility with tactics.

As for the map. This subject has come up quite a few times. Sometimes in discussions between me and Alexandre, sometimes brought up by the players.

(...)

I did once the AI was removed, and the "Faux-regimes" put in place (the system that makes the neutrals work the way they do), strongly consider making a bigger map. In fact I put together a damn good try. I managed to make the outline of everything on a 280 wide map, with every city and terrain rethought, for every country in Asia and Europe and Africa, save the Soviet Union. However the sheer amount of time needed to be put in to make this map, was almost defeating by itself. So the project died.

(...)

Secondly we had some discussions on map scale, and we agreed that bigger is better. But we also agreed that it would be a pity to include areas that are mostly unused, and big, cause those are timeconsuming to make, yet serve no purpose, and eat up more RAM. RAM is still a consideration cause we are using so many SFTs that it litterally has not been tested before, and there is no telling when and if the system crashes. And when I speak of RAM, it is the RAM that ATG can access, not the amount of total RAM on your computer. I think that limit is 2 GB.

In any case, we came to much the same conclussion that tweber came to in WAW for ATG. That perhaps a map scaled in different sizes different places was the most practical. So in as sense we were slowly coming round to that fact that WAW for ATG got it right. While this is not as pleasing to the senses, there just is something more pleasing to the exact picture of the globe, rather than something warped. It would also mean different air ranges in different areas of the world, and possibly duplicates of landscape types, that just had the effect of being "bigger"...

In any case, it has stalled on the sheer amount of work it would be to do so. There are so many lines of code that too need to be gone over, that we might as well make a GD 1938 v.3 (The first being the one before this one, and the second being the one played currently). A complete recoding might as well entail alot of other changes. It was with that in mind we sort of made this thread.

In a sense we are waiting to see if there is enough backing for us to redo it completely. With the news that VR designs was working on the new baby siblnig to ATG, Shadow Empire, that too gave us reason to pause... perhaps a new GD 1938 could be made for that?

That is the list of thoughts we have had, regarding map size.

Thanks Ernie for detailed references about map issue.

I also think personally that larger map is better. I can even say how much bigger :) I just do not have a feeling about crowded map playing Global Domination 1900 mod. That map is not much bigger, but firmly larger. As I counted hexes from Lisbon to Moscow it is like 39 to 30 (not straight line, but counting all hexes supply must go through). So it means something 25% makes the difference.

Of course the larger map allows more fun/flexibility. And of course it could be a lot of work to re-do mod. But as far as I can tell, that GD1900 map is just fine. It needs some fine tuning, but could be treated as a base.

I know that some things can be imported into scenario: sfts, landscapes, researches. I suspect events can't be imported and all text strings with coordinates should be rewritten.

I did not like map in WAW with different scaled sizes of different places. I don't even think it's practical, although I know war in Amazon jungle is not plausible.

I don't know what to think about Shadow Empire. Is it going to be ATG 2 under different name? The same flexible combat system that can simulate more or less every war or battle? If yes, then you should wait. If not, then go.
If Shadow Empire is going to be some game like DC with very specific (few) sides, concentrated on very specific time frame, then you should definitely go for GD 1938 v.3 for ATG.

For me it's an answer what would be shorter: will Vic create new working system (Shadow Empire) faster that you could create 3.0?
From his dev blog it was stated more than year ago that game is playable ("The gameplay has had some live testing against friends and with a few select alpha testers from previous games. And it is good!" Posted on July 28, 2014). How is it today?

For me GD 1938 v.3 should be the same mod but on different map. If you start tweaking it during designing ("A complete recoding might as well entail a lot of other changes") it will be far less sure to ever be finished.

So to summarize: only larger map without any other improvements (well, it' s just damn good mod already!).

═══
There is no such thing as a historically accurate strategy game. Every game stops being historically accurate from the very first move player do. First unit that moves ahistorically, first battle with non-historical results, mean we ride in unknown.
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Khanti
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RE: Fixing GD 1938

Post by Khanti »

supply truck carry 5 supplies but consumes 15 - should it be opposite?
ORIGINAL: ernieschwitz

I have asked Bombur and his response was that they are not meant to be used to carry supplies, more they are a way to transfer stuff using landcap, to non-rail connected hexes. So strictly speaking their role is to stay in the HQs and transfer things out. They were made before the TO&E system, and may well be have made obsolette by it. Bombur has asked me to convey the idea that perhaps we could return landcap to ordinary trucks, and do away with supply trucks.
ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Actually unless one has supply trucks in the hqs one can not transfer effectively to units more then a couple hexes from the Hqs in question. Sure returning stuff to hqs seems to be free but not outgoing. I have had to build and deploy supply trucks to my army hqs since the to and e thing.

Ernie,
Supply truck carries 5 supplies but consumes 15 supplies. It's the least effective truck in mod. I really support returning of landcap to ordinary trucks, and do away with supply trucks. I never understood why some trucks can transport troops, but not supplies and the other trucks only can transport supplies. One truck with three different sizes in term of troop and landcap capacity is OK for me.

Twotribes,
I also like buildings trucks, but somehow some of them do not like my troops and some other ones like only my supplies ;)
═══
There is no such thing as a historically accurate strategy game. Every game stops being historically accurate from the very first move player do. First unit that moves ahistorically, first battle with non-historical results, mean we ride in unknown.
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ernieschwitz
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RE: Fixing GD 1938

Post by ernieschwitz »

Seems like there is some support for me redoing the map.

Regarding the code, it can be imported, so no beef there. It's not like I need to retype it, I "just" need to recheck it everywhere that it has a map reference. Also Bombur would need to redo movement rates for all landscapes (not impossible). I'll give some serious thought to it.

As for the supply trucks, I think you may be right, about it being better to have them go away, and give landcap back to ordinary trucks...
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Khanti
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RE: Fixing GD 1938

Post by Khanti »

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Wish 88 flak was added to the game just a pet peeve.

Something like this?



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═══
There is no such thing as a historically accurate strategy game. Every game stops being historically accurate from the very first move player do. First unit that moves ahistorically, first battle with non-historical results, mean we ride in unknown.
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Bombur
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RE: Fixing GD 1938

Post by Bombur »

I vote for deleting the supply trucks too.....
We should be cautious with world map. At 400x200 it still will have a big 100km hex size and Europe still crowded, so it will take a lot of extra RAM for very small improvement
At 800x400 we have a good hex size but it will be unplayable
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