Underway Replenishment Test

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Bullwinkle58
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Underway Replenishment Test

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

In response to another thread currently active concerning 1945 AE underway replenishment of naval ammunition I ran some tests. This feature of the game is not well-documented in the manual. For a long time I, and others, have believed and stated that only 5-inch and smaller ammunition would be replenished by Allied-only, AEs-only, from 1/1/45 onward.

However, this old post from Don Bowen, naval coder on the dev team, refutes that:

"Late in the war, AEs were equipped for transfer of ammunition to ships at sea. Prior to that, AEs could only transfer to ships when they were alongside in a port.

The only difference between AE and AKE is this late war underway rearmament.

AEs and AKEs come in all sizes, with only the larger ones having the capability of handling the shells for the really big guns. We wanted to allow small AE/AKE for rearmament of smaller warships without creating a "cheat" where an incredibly small ship could handle the largest ammo. This was implemented using the total cargo capacity.

In this regard, total cargo capacity stands in for the magazine size and protection, cranes and elevators, hatch sizes, deck reinforcement, and all the other items involved in carrying and issuing ammunition.

This check on total cargo capacity is in addition to the supply requirement for actual issue of ammunition.

Basically, total cargo capacity indicates the ability to carry ammunition of a certain size and supply on board indicates if any ammunition is actually being carried. "

Don Bowen

tm.asp?m=3543680&mpage=1&key=AEs?



(Font size embellishment mine.)

But how, exactly, does onboard supply relate to replenishment capability? So I ran some tests.

-----------------------------------------------------------

I used the Downfall scenario for all tests. It takes place in 1945 when AEs may unrep ammo. It uses the same EXE as a GC game.

1. First set of tests. Based from Guam.

A. I used the editor to unload just USS New Jersey. All guns were unloaded to 2 rounds, except the 20mm, which I left alone. So this was main battery 16 in, 5 in, and the 40MMs.

I formed NJ into a Surface TF, moved her one hex west of Guam, and Remained.
I formed a Replenishment TF of just Mt. Baker, a 5400 point supply AE. Loaded her, moved her to New Jersey's hex with Remain.

Ordered New Jersey to Replenish.

Result: fuel transferred (minor quantity.) No ammunition of any caliber moved. NJ remained as before. Mt. Baker remained with 5400 supply onboard.

B. Same as above, but added USS Shasta, a second 5400 supply AE. Combined to one Replenishment TF. Ordered NJ to Replenish.

Result: no ammo of any caliber moved.

C. Added USS Mazana. 5400 supply.

Result: no ammo moved.

D. Added USS Ranier. 5400 supply.

Result: no ammo moved.

E. Added USS Lassen. 5400 supply.

Result: no ammo moved.

F. Removed all AEs. Loaded and sent AE USS Firedrake, a 6400 supply capacity AE. Ordered New Jersey to Replenish just from this one, larger, AE.

Result: no ammo moved.

Conclusions from first set of tests:

a. Surprise
b. Wondering if use of editor somehow "broke" algorithm
c. Wondering if there is a threshold demand level on taking vessel below which AEs cannot service without port help.

2. Second set of tests. Clean Downfall. Based from Guam.

A. Did not use editor. Formed three Bombardment TFs. DD Ault, CA Boston, BB Iowa. Fully loaded with ammo and fuel at Guam. Each ordered to go to HaHa-Jima and bombard.

B. Sent loaded AE Ranier to Remain just south of HaHa-Jima.

C. DD Ault bombarded. Met AE Rainier, Replenished. Full ammo load resulted.

D. Reloaded save to pre-bombardment point where AE was pristine. Sent CA Boston to bombard. She met AE Ranier. Replenished. Full ammo, including expended 8 inch, replenished.

E. Reloaded to pre-bombardment point. Sent BB Iowa to bombard. She met AE Ranier. Ammo loads pre-replenish as follows:

7 (13) 16 inch
7(13) 16 inch
30(30) 5 inch
28(30) 5 inch
36(36) all remaining AA

Post Replenish: All ammo reloaded.

Condition of AE Ranier: Supply 5400 --> 4812

3. Third round of tests.

A. Same general set-up as above. HaHa-Jima, etc. However, this time only BB Iowa used. Ordered to stay on station after bombardment. Total of three rounds of bombardment performed.

Ammo loads after three rounds of bombardment:

2(13)
2(13)
28(30)
28(30)
36(36) all AA

B. Ordered AE Ranier to Replenish.

Result: no ammo loaded of any caliber. 310 ops points expended by BB Iowa taking fuel from Ranier's bunkers.

Conclusions of Rounds 2 and 3:

a. 5 inch and smaller belief in forum clearly untrue (see CA Boston)
b. 16 inch will reload in some cases
c. There seems to be a break-point somewhere between 7(13) and 2(13) 16 inch whereby the AE is "frozen out" and does no replenishing.

4. Fourth round of tests.

A. Using above set-up as base, left BB Iowa at 2(13), etc. level, off Ha-Ha-Jima. To eliminate ops points from Ranier for refuel, loaded 12,950 AO Pautuxent at Guam and met new AE Mt. Baker, which had not tried any ammo ops in this test run. Merged to form 2-ship Replenishment TF. Moved BB Iowa into their hex.

B. Ordered BB Iowa to Replenish.

Result: no ammo loaded to Iowa of any caliber. Iowa refueled from AO. AO supply from 12950 ---> 12,799. AE supply 5400 ---> 5400
BB Iowa ops points 250 after refuel.

Overall conclusions:

a. In certain cases underway replenishment of large caliber ammo is possible. There is an unknown break-point between moderate need and severe need on 16 inch ammo whereby even a large collection of AE capacity will not service.

b. If below this break point, even 5inch and small caliber AA ammo will not replenish, leaving the large caliber demand unfilled. No ammo moves at all, although fuel does, from both an AE or an AO in company.
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RE: Underway Replenishment Test

Post by Lokasenna »

Perhaps it is looking at the total load cost of the missing ammo and "breaking"? When Iowa replenished that ammo, it was 588 points' worth. Can't check right now, but does 588 points match the supplies that would be expended to replenish her at a port for that amount of ammo?

I remember that check on maximum ammo size able to be reloaded from an AE/AKE based on the size of the tender's hold - I wonder if maybe it is checking against the total reload cost for the ship instead of just the biggest gun? Just a wild guess.
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RE: Underway Replenishment Test

Post by Yaab »

Clearly the devs had mercy on Japs in 1945.
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RE: Underway Replenishment Test

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ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Perhaps it is looking at the total load cost of the missing ammo and "breaking"? When Iowa replenished that ammo, it was 588 points' worth. Can't check right now, but does 588 points match the supplies that would be expended to replenish her at a port for that amount of ammo?

I remember that check on maximum ammo size able to be reloaded from an AE/AKE based on the size of the tender's hold - I wonder if maybe it is checking against the total reload cost for the ship instead of just the biggest gun? Just a wild guess.

Something like that, yeah. I don't know the supply point "weight" of one "cycle" (1 of 13) of 16inch ammo. I don't even know, or really need to care, how much pound weight or number of shells one "cycle" of 16inch totals to. It's in abstraction-land, and so far as hits and damage inflicted is also in the same abstraction-land all is apples-to-apples.

Two things really surprised me here.

1. When the New Jersey was flat out of ammo, even a gaggle of 5400 AEs didn't help.

2. Even if they couldn't load 16inch, they also refused to fill the 40MM magazines. It looks like a top-down check, not a bottom-up. Given that ammo unreps' main use in the game is to hold the line on kamis in the late game near the HI, this is distressing.
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RE: Underway Replenishment Test

Post by Yaab »

What about the OP points in each BB in those tests? I guess the AE ships start the replenishment process with full allowance of OP points. BBs may start the process with reduced amount of OP points. Also, maybe the ships with lower ID get replenished first, leaving the BBs lacking time to replenish. Also, BBs may have used more ammo --- bigger guns, greater range, more rounds fired in the game?
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RE: Underway Replenishment Test

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: Yaab

What about the OP points in each BB in those tests? I guess the AE ships start the replenishment process with full allowance of OP points. BBs may start the process with reduced amount of OP points. Also, maybe the ships with lower ID get replenished first, leaving the BBs lacking time to replenish. Also, BBs may have used more ammo --- bigger guns, greater range, more rounds fired in the game?

I think he conducted the test with single-ship TFs, which would eliminate other ships getting in the way.

250 Ops points burned for replenishing is a standard minimum. Up to a certain point, it doesn't matter how much fuel and such is transferred between ships - it'll burn 250 Ops. Did you sail for a single day then decide to refuel? 250 ops. Sail for a few days and it's still under the threshold for it to use more than 250 Ops? It still costs 250.

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Perhaps it is looking at the total load cost of the missing ammo and "breaking"? When Iowa replenished that ammo, it was 588 points' worth. Can't check right now, but does 588 points match the supplies that would be expended to replenish her at a port for that amount of ammo?

I remember that check on maximum ammo size able to be reloaded from an AE/AKE based on the size of the tender's hold - I wonder if maybe it is checking against the total reload cost for the ship instead of just the biggest gun? Just a wild guess.

Something like that, yeah. I don't know the supply point "weight" of one "cycle" (1 of 13) of 16inch ammo. I don't even know, or really need to care, how much pound weight or number of shells one "cycle" of 16inch totals to. It's in abstraction-land, and so far as hits and damage inflicted is also in the same abstraction-land all is apples-to-apples.

Two things really surprised me here.

1. When the New Jersey was flat out of ammo, even a gaggle of 5400 AEs didn't help.

2. Even if they couldn't load 16inch, they also refused to fill the 40MM magazines. It looks like a top-down check, not a bottom-up. Given that ammo unreps' main use in the game is to hold the line on kamis in the late game near the HI, this is distressing.

It sounds like a bug. Sometimes ships will replenish, other times they won't.
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RE: Underway Replenishment Test

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: Yaab

What about the OP points in each BB in those tests? I guess the AE ships start the replenishment process with full allowance of OP points. BBs may start the process with reduced amount of OP points. Also, maybe the ships with lower ID get replenished first, leaving the BBs lacking time to replenish. Also, BBs may have used more ammo --- bigger guns, greater range, more rounds fired in the game?

If you closely read my post you'll see answers to these questions.
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RE: Underway Replenishment Test

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

2. Even if they couldn't load 16inch, they also refused to fill the 40MM magazines. It looks like a top-down check, not a bottom-up. Given that ammo unreps' main use in the game is to hold the line on kamis in the late game near the HI, this is distressing.

It sounds like a bug. Sometimes ships will replenish, other times they won't.

In the trial where the DD, CA, and BB each did a one-off bombardment of HaHa-Jima they each only expended about 30-50%% of their loads, and each replenished. But when the BB went deep into the magazines, down to 2(13) on main, nothing. Even with a 6400 AE, with 16inch reload from the table at 5400 minimum, nothing.

Something happens between 7(13) and 2(13.)
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RE: Underway Replenishment Test

Post by dave sindel »

Thanks for doing this testing Moose. And for posting the results and analysis. Had to have been time-consuming. Is it something MichaelM should look at do you think?
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RE: Underway Replenishment Test

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An oops
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RE: Underway Replenishment Test

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ORIGINAL: dave sindel

Thanks for doing this testing Moose. And for posting the results and analysis. Had to have been time-consuming. Is it something MichaelM should look at do you think?

I don't think it's necessarily broken, but I also don't think there's any good place to go to understand the mechanism. I searched a number of ways on the topic and got lots of hits, but other than the Don Bowen posts I pasted nothing from a dev. Not saying there aren't any more, but I didn't find them.

Alfred's new manual ought to cover this I would think. So many Allied players have never seen 1945 that it's not a top subject here in the forum. But I know from AI games that it's a really important mechanism in the late game if you do get there.
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RE: Underway Replenishment Test

Post by ny59giants »

I wonder if super-sizing the AE would help eliminate that factor? Say from 6400 to 9400. Have the replenish TF ordered to meet, follow and re-fuel, and do a two day cycle to see if there is something else going on.
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RE: Underway Replenishment Test

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ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

2. Even if they couldn't load 16inch, they also refused to fill the 40MM magazines. It looks like a top-down check, not a bottom-up. Given that ammo unreps' main use in the game is to hold the line on kamis in the late game near the HI, this is distressing.

It sounds like a bug. Sometimes ships will replenish, other times they won't.

In the trial where the DD, CA, and BB each did a one-off bombardment of HaHa-Jima they each only expended about 30-50%% of their loads, and each replenished. But when the BB went deep into the magazines, down to 2(13) on main, nothing. Even with a 6400 AE, with 16inch reload from the table at 5400 minimum, nothing.

Something happens between 7(13) and 2(13.)

My guess is that it's the total load cost for it, either in terms of being too much for the AE (unlikely) or too much for the ship to do in one turn. So it could perhaps be an Ops limitation - since the ship can't fully reload in 1000 Ops, it just isn't reloading at all. This could be "WAD" in the sense that it could be meant to protect you from burning all of your Ops on just reloading ammo.

After thinking of that, I'd bet it's an Ops thing. Since it can't be fully rearmed in 1000 Ops or less, it is just doing nothing.
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RE: Underway Replenishment Test

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ORIGINAL: ny59giants

I wonder if super-sizing the AE would help eliminate that factor? Say from 6400 to 9400. Have the replenish TF ordered to meet, follow and re-fuel, and do a two day cycle to see if there is something else going on.

Doing this would eliminate it as a potential cause. Change it from 5400 to 20000, just to see.
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RE: Underway Replenishment Test

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ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

2. Even if they couldn't load 16inch, they also refused to fill the 40MM magazines. It looks like a top-down check, not a bottom-up. Given that ammo unreps' main use in the game is to hold the line on kamis in the late game near the HI, this is distressing.

It sounds like a bug. Sometimes ships will replenish, other times they won't.

In the trial where the DD, CA, and BB each did a one-off bombardment of HaHa-Jima they each only expended about 30-50%% of their loads, and each replenished. But when the BB went deep into the magazines, down to 2(13) on main, nothing. Even with a 6400 AE, with 16inch reload from the table at 5400 minimum, nothing.

Something happens between 7(13) and 2(13.)

My guess is that it's the total load cost for it, either in terms of being too much for the AE (unlikely) or too much for the ship to do in one turn. So it could perhaps be an Ops limitation - since the ship can't fully reload in 1000 Ops, it just isn't reloading at all. This could be "WAD" in the sense that it could be meant to protect you from burning all of your Ops on just reloading ammo.

After thinking of that, I'd bet it's an Ops thing. Since it can't be fully rearmed in 1000 Ops or less, it is just doing nothing.
That's what I was thinking - the 1000 ops points is necessary for the AE - not the BB. If the AE moved one hex from Guam to meet the BB, it used some of its ops point and would have to wait a day to try replenish. I could see the developers setting that kind of restriction to keep the AE from reloading a number of BBs in a single day.
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RE: Underway Replenishment Test

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ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

My guess is that it's the total load cost for it, either in terms of being too much for the AE (unlikely) or too much for the ship to do in one turn. So it could perhaps be an Ops limitation - since the ship can't fully reload in 1000 Ops, it just isn't reloading at all. This could be "WAD" in the sense that it could be meant to protect you from burning all of your Ops on just reloading ammo.

After thinking of that, I'd bet it's an Ops thing. Since it can't be fully rearmed in 1000 Ops or less, it is just doing nothing.

You're probably right, but it would be nice if it would go bottom-up and give me some AA. Up to half ops or something. Else the AEs are really not that useful in 1945.

The one trial where I got the 16inch to replenish gives a "per cycle" read on AE supply usage. I didn't look at ops points on that one though.
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RE: Underway Replenishment Test

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

I wonder if super-sizing the AE would help eliminate that factor? Say from 6400 to 9400. Have the replenish TF ordered to meet, follow and re-fuel, and do a two day cycle to see if there is something else going on.

Doing this would eliminate it as a potential cause. Change it from 5400 to 20000, just to see.

The 6400 didn't push any shells either. I'd bet it's the pulling ship at fault here.
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RE: Underway Replenishment Test

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ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

That's what I was thinking - the 1000 ops points is necessary for the AE - not the BB. If the AE moved one hex from Guam to meet the BB, it used some of its ops point and would have to wait a day to try replenish. I could see the developers setting that kind of restriction to keep the AE from reloading a number of BBs in a single day.

In the tests the AE always did wait a day. I moved the TFs together, set Remain on both, ran a day forward , and then hand-ordered the BB to take. One reason the BB always wanted to take fuel too. You can't separate the two operations.
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RE: Underway Replenishment Test

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ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

That's what I was thinking - the 1000 ops points is necessary for the AE - not the BB. If the AE moved one hex from Guam to meet the BB, it used some of its ops point and would have to wait a day to try replenish. I could see the developers setting that kind of restriction to keep the AE from reloading a number of BBs in a single day.

In the tests the AE always did wait a day. I moved the TFs together, set Remain on both, ran a day forward , and then hand-ordered the BB to take. One reason the BB always wanted to take fuel too. You can't separate the two operations.

Yes, I actually meant the Ops points on the day of replenishing not on the day they sailed to the same hex. If they started in the same hex, they'd have used 0 Ops each before the replenish attempt.


It would be nice if there were a "rearm TF" button, similar to how there is now replenish/rearm in the port screen, but where would you put it?
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RE: Underway Replenishment Test

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ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

That's what I was thinking - the 1000 ops points is necessary for the AE - not the BB. If the AE moved one hex from Guam to meet the BB, it used some of its ops point and would have to wait a day to try replenish. I could see the developers setting that kind of restriction to keep the AE from reloading a number of BBs in a single day.

In the tests the AE always did wait a day. I moved the TFs together, set Remain on both, ran a day forward , and then hand-ordered the BB to take. One reason the BB always wanted to take fuel too. You can't separate the two operations.
The only idea I have left is what you said - the algorithm is not working as it should. It seems to be just the Iowa class BBs that cause the issue? That would imply that the data for that class is borked in the underway replenishment calculations.

PS- new thought - is weather a factor in any of the results?
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