at sea replenishment question

[jcjordan]

My old mind has forgotten this so I may have it wrong overall but can you resupply CV sorties using at sea replenishment TF w/ an AE/AKE ship like you can resupply BB/CA/CL/DD ammo. If so when does it start plus ship type needed? I've searched here but got no answers

[rustysi]

That's cruel. Your old mind is seeking info from my old mind.[:D]

I did a cursory search of the manual and could not find precise info. What I do recall is:

1) Only AE vessels can perform unrep.
2) It won't occur 'til late war (don't recall time frame).
3) Its an Allied function only. (No such capability for Japan).
4) The AE must have a capacity that is => the rearm cost of the weapon.

Edit: Out of time right now. If you don't get a more definitive answer I'll try again tomorrow.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: jcjordan

My old mind has forgotten this so I may have it wrong overall but can you resupply CV sorties using at sea replenishment TF w/ an AE/AKE ship like you can resupply BB/CA/CL/DD ammo. If so when does it start plus ship type needed? I've searched here but got no answers

From memory:

1. AE only in Replenishment TF
2. January 1, 1945 and later.
3. Allied only.
4. Shells 5-inches and smaller. Essentially AA stuff and DD main guns. No torps. No cruiser or BB main guns.

Been years since I did it, but I seem to recall it takes either all or most of the ops points for the turn for the taking TF. But don't quote me on that.

[Leandros]

This might be a reasonable place to take up a recent/similar problem of mine. One of my newest battleships - North Carolina - has been out of main gun ammo for some time and I have not been able to resupply it "in the field". I've had it in a major port, a major port with plenty of supplies, together with an AE ship, together in an AE ship in a port with plenty of supplies (more than 20.000) and in a port with a large USN support force. I believe I have covered the pre-requisites in the manual. No dice! Anybody?

Fred

[HansBolter]

The AE has to have supply loaded aboard. The supply will be consumed by the replenishment and will need to be reloaded. There is a button for reloading tenders disbanded in ports.

[Macclan5]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

The AE has to have supply loaded aboard. The supply will be consumed by the replenishment and will need to be reloaded. There is a button for reloading tenders disbanded in ports.

+1

And of course there is another button (when ships are disbanded in port) to "re-arm re-fuel all ships" right beside the "load all tenders" button.

I am certain that there is a port sized requirement for BB main ammo as well for example... in addition to the AE size requirement to carry BB Main gun ammo.

Sorry away from manual which contains the specific reference.

Leandros - you indicate 'major port' but 'how major' ?

[Leandros]

Thank you, guys - I have used the buttons - confirmed loaded "AE", too. "Major" port....hmmm....is "6" major enough..? With an AE in it, more than 20.000 in supply and 65 USN support squads..?

The support ship is AE LASSEN - 6.300 tons.

Fred

P.S.: Checking again I see now that the port was "5" but there is the above-mentioned AE disbanded, and loaded, in it.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Leandros

Thank you, guys - I have used the buttons - confirmed loaded "AE", too. "Major" port....hmmm....is "6" major enough..? With an AE in it, more than 20.000 in supply and 65 USN support squads..?

The support ship is AE LASSEN - 6.300 tons.

Fred

Without any naval support you need a level 7 port to load any BB ammo. I am not sure how much naval support it takes to raise the reload capability of a level 6 port to level 7. Also be aware that the largest shells are the LAST to be handled by the port or AE, so it is common for the supplying port or ship and/or the receiving port or ship to run out of ops points before replenishing the BB main gun ammo. If any of them show 1000 ops points used you need to wait another turn to finish the loading (and hopefully not have another TF arrive and use up the ops points again!)

Incidentally, if using the button on the right side of the port screen to reload ammo on ships disbanded in port, you must "right click" the button as opposed to the normal "left click" (which refuels ships disbanded in port). To load ships under repair in pierside or shipyard mode you must change to the "ships under repair" screen.

[Leandros]

Thank you, BB - I think maybe the problem is what you indicate - that too much activity is using up the ops points. I'll give it a couple of rounds and see how it turns out.

Fred

[bomccarthy]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: jcjordan

My old mind has forgotten this so I may have it wrong overall but can you resupply CV sorties using at sea replenishment TF w/ an AE/AKE ship like you can resupply BB/CA/CL/DD ammo. If so when does it start plus ship type needed? I've searched here but got no answers

From memory:

1. AE only in Replenishment TF
2. January 1, 1945 and later.
3. Allied only.
4. Shells 5-inches and smaller. Essentially AA stuff and DD main guns. No torps. No cruiser or BB main guns.

Been years since I did it, but I seem to recall it takes either all or most of the ops points for the turn for the taking TF. But don't quote me on that.

+1, except #4 - AE will replenish BB main guns at sea (AE needs to have at least 5,400 capacity). This is critical for supporting 1945 invasions. I would keep replenishment TFs close enough to the landing site so that BB bombardment TFs could rotate between the landing site and the replenishment TFs for reloads. The replenishment TFs would then rotate between the replenishment zone and one or more ports to load more supplies.

[jmalter]

IIRC, bomccarthy has it right wrt the Moose's #4.

1945 is a good year for the Allied navies - with ReplTFs of AO, AE and VRF/CVE ships, TFs can stay at sea indefinitely. Fuel, ammunition, planes & pilots are delivered at sea. My only moan is that while VRF squadrons could not provide 'reserve' planes to the CVs - they would only fill out an airgroup to its listed strength.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: bomccarthy

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: jcjordan

My old mind has forgotten this so I may have it wrong overall but can you resupply CV sorties using at sea replenishment TF w/ an AE/AKE ship like you can resupply BB/CA/CL/DD ammo. If so when does it start plus ship type needed? I've searched here but got no answers

From memory:

1. AE only in Replenishment TF
2. January 1, 1945 and later.
3. Allied only.
4. Shells 5-inches and smaller. Essentially AA stuff and DD main guns. No torps. No cruiser or BB main guns.

Been years since I did it, but I seem to recall it takes either all or most of the ops points for the turn for the taking TF. But don't quote me on that.

+1, except #4 - AE will replenish BB main guns at sea (AE needs to have at least 5,400 capacity). This is critical for supporting 1945 invasions. I would keep replenishment TFs close enough to the landing site so that BB bombardment TFs could rotate between the landing site and the replenishment TFs for reloads. The replenishment TFs would then rotate between the replenishment zone and one or more ports to load more supplies.

I did a search and found numerous old timers quoting the 5inches and smaller bit (including me.) I also found one post by Don Bowen saying the rearm check is the same for underway, after 1/1/45, and in port.

And yes, there are a number of USN AEs that are 5400 or larger. Not much larger though.

But at sea there is no assistance from naval support. Just the AE in the check. And this bit from the manual I don't completely get:

"As a TF rearms, it consumes supply. The amount of supply required for each weapon, for each
ship, is [(Rearm Cost) * (number of guns) * (ammo per gun)] / 2000." Manual, page 284.

The threshold to reload for any 16in gun is 5400. So, perhaps, at best, one 5400 capacity AE could rearm one BB? And be flat empty after? Or does the above formula drive down the 5400 due to multiple turrets?

Do you have direct experience re-loading BBs from AEs at sea? If so, how many BBs can one AE re-load? Or part of one BB?

[Bullwinkle58]

Looked a little more.

"Late in the war, AEs were equipped for transfer of ammunition to ships at sea. Prior to that, AEs could only transfer to ships when they were alongside in a port.

The only difference between AE and AKE is this late war underway rearmament.

AEs and AKEs come in all sizes, with only the larger ones having the capability of handling the shells for the really big guns. We wanted to allow small AE/AKE for rearmament of smaller warships without creating a "cheat" where an incredibly small ship could handle the largest ammo. This was implemented using the total cargo capacity.

In this regard, total cargo capacity stands in for the magazine size and protection, cranes and elevators, hatch sizes, deck reinforcement, and all the other items involved in carrying and issuing ammunition.

This check on total cargo capacity is in addition to the supply requirement for actual issue of ammunition.

Basically, total cargo capacity indicates the ability to carry ammunition of a certain size and supply on board indicates if any ammunition is actually being carried. "

Don Bowen

tm.asp?m=3543680&mpage=1&key=AEs?

And this from Alfred:

"Some clarifications are in order.

1. Commencing 1 January 1945, AE type vessels which are in a Replenishment TF, can rearm from their "cargo" hold, ships in other task forces whilst at sea.

2. AKE and TK type vessels can never rearm and refuel respectively from their "cargo" holds, ships in other task forces whilst at sea. The same restriction applies to AE type vessels prior to 1 January 1945.

3. AKE and TK type vessels must be at a base (ditto for AE prior to 1 January 1945) in order to rearm and refuel respectively from their "cargo" holds other ships in a task force currently at that base (it need not be docked). The AKE/TK may be either disbanded in the port or in a task force. Ships in other task forces which wish to replenish from the AKE/TK either select:

(a) replenish from port, if the AKE/TK are disbanded in port, or
(b) replenish at sea, if the AKE/TK are in a task force

4. AE/AKE can replenish all weapon systems (except mines), subject to having a sufficient internal cargo hold capacity and the requisite supply to meet the rearming cost. In practice this means that AKE will probably only be able to rearm up to 12" guns. Most AE (but not all) can rearm up to 16" guns. All AE/AKE are capable of rearming carrier aircraft and torpedo sorties.

Read this thread for reference.

tm.asp?m=2296976&mpage=1&key=replenish?

Alfred"

tm.asp?m=3491611&mpage=1&key=rearming?
=================================================


So. I was wrong, although the 5inches and smaller note is widespread and came from somewhere in the very early days.


And, per Don's post, the 5400 capacity, IF they have exactly 5400 supply on-board (and not one point less) can rearm a BB at sea after 1/1/45 if they're in a Replenishment TF and ops points cooperate. At that point they should be flat dry and need to go to a port to re-supply. In my experience at many ports, especially those with multiple tenders needing to load supply, one turn often isn't enough to get back to 5400 on more than one tender.

Also, 5400 is the most common sized AE in the USN. In my mid-1944 game I have only two 6400 supply afloat (may have lost some; I didn't check), with only three more to be delivered by the end of the war (Vesuvius, Wrangell, Firedrake.)

So if one had a Bombardment TF of, say, seven BBs with 16in main guns, I read that as needing seven 5400 AEs or larger to rearm all at once, each with pristine supply levels.

I've only used AEs at sea in AI games years ago. I used them for AA ammo to combat the kamis. I don't recall ever trying to re-arm battleships. Probably didn't try as I, and many others, thought there was a 5inch restriction.

[bomccarthy]

I admit to being a player who estimates rather roughly, instead of calculating down to the last supply or capacity point. It's been almost 6 months since I ended my game, but I recall using no more than 4 BBs in a bombardment TF (with escorting DDs) during the initial invasion of a hex, with followup bombardment TFs of 2-3 BBs each. My replenishment TFs would consist of at least 4 AEs (plus DEs) - one would replenish a single BB TF, then return to port to restock, with another replenishment TF taking its spot in the replenishment zone. It was a bit of a headache, especially since I would have other replenishment TFs with smaller AEs to replenish the landing craft rocket/gunboat TFs that would merge with the amphib TFs as they unloaded reinforcements and supplies in a contested hex. And 4-5 CVE TFs (each with 4-5 CVEs and attendant DEs) would cover the whole affair, along with surface and ASW TFs. And standing off a bit in the distance would be TF38/58, keeping the kamikazes busy.

Of course, I was playing the AI, so I didn't have to worry about sneaky moves, just keep an eye on the 1,000+ fighters based in Tokyo. Still, it was kind of like those Ed Sullivan Show performers who would keep 20 dinner plates spinning on poles for five minutes.

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: Leandros

Thank you, guys - I have used the buttons - confirmed loaded "AE", too. "Major" port....hmmm....is "6" major enough..? With an AE in it, more than 20.000 in supply and 65 USN support squads..?

The support ship is AE LASSEN - 6.300 tons.

Fred

P.S.: Checking again I see now that the port was "5" but there is the above-mentioned AE disbanded, and loaded, in it.

I think your issue is procedural as opposed to anything else. Here's how it works. You say you have an AE disbanded and loaded in port, and of sufficient cargo capacity to rearm the BB. From what I see you are correct. What you now have to do is put the BB in a TF and click on the button that will 'replenish TF from port'. That will reload your BB's ammo if you have all other requirements met, and I believe may be what you're missing. IOW you can't reload the BB from within the port unless the port/NS is sufficient.

BTW an AE/AKE will perform this task in any size port (and maybe a dot base, never tried) as long as all other criteria are met (i.e., cargo size, loaded with supply, disbanded in port).

In addition.

is "6" major enough..?

No. In your case the North Carolina has a 16/45 Mk5 shell with a rearm cost of 4480. In a level 6 port you would need and additional 756 NS devices in order to reload the main armament. All this can be found in the manual. Check 20.1.2.2 starting on p284.

Ciao

[BBfanboy]

Bullwinkle58: IF they have exactly 5400 supply on-board (and not one point less)

I am not sure you have understood the info from Don correctly, although there is a chance that underway replenishment has the "supply on-board" restriction you mentioned in the quote.

In port, it does not matter how much supply you actually have on the AE/AKE, it will attempt to replenish a demand from a BB subject to:

A: sufficient size ( I am using 4200 capacity AKE to reload R class BBs)
B: sufficient ops points - the AKE will load one BB within the available 1000 ops points, but only part of a second BB
C: sufficient supply on board - I have had the AKE down below half of available capacity when the BBs came calling and it still loaded some main gun ammo until it ran out of supply. IOW, the capacity of the ship, not the actual supply on board governs whether any ammo gets transferred.

In the case of an underway replenishment by AE, it makes sense to have a large enough AE by capacity (5400 to handle the Iowa class) but not to require that it be fully loaded. Replenishing an Iowa class does not require 5400 tons of ammo, and it is ludicrous to think that any BB captain would take a wave-off when he could get SOME of his main gun ammo instead of none. And then there is the issue that smaller ammo gets transferred first, so a BB would basically never be able to use underway replenishment if the AE had to be fully stocked.

[jcjordan]

So no replenishing of CV sorties at sea? Should that not be possible/was it done historically as I assume CV sorties amounts mostly to bombs/torps/av fuel?

[rustysi]

OK, I looked again, but didn't find anything in writing although I believe it should be possible. Here's my reasoning, an AE will supply ships ammo including CVs. Of course the afore mentioned has prerequisites, such as sufficient cargo capacity, supply loaded, and op points remaining. At a certain point 'late' in the game an AE may resupply 'at sea'. Therefore at that certain point 'late' in the game I don't see why an AE wouldn't provide unrep. Now as for a date 'late' in the game, as near as I can tell it is 1/1/45. So in 1945 put your AE's in a replenishment TF and run them out with your forces and see what happens.[:D] Wish I could point to something more specific, but that's all I got after more than an hour, sorry.

BTW someone out there must have 'been there, done that', no? If you have give us a post. Inquiring minds want to know.[:)]

[BBfanboy]

My current game is in 1942 ATM, so when I get to 1945 in three years I will let you know (senility permitting) ....[8|]

[jcjordan]

Well I'm at DDay 6/6/44 so I'll be there in a few months [:'(]