v1.11+NI: Window Behavior

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MarkShot
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v1.11+NI: Window Behavior

Post by MarkShot »

I didn't play much HC/H3/ANW. However, I see big improvements in this game both in terms of the game and technology.

There is one area of the UI which should be changed. Windows only come to the foreground when they are first opened. If they are open already and hidden, then hitting then appropriate key or menu option does nothing. They should always come to the foreground. I am using two monitors and the absence of this greatly negates the secondary monitor and free floating windows.

Thanks!
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MarkShot
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RE: v1.11+NI: Window Behavior

Post by MarkShot »

Another oddity I noticed was that the game only seems to update the INI with new window positions when they are open upon game shutdown.

Thanks!
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ComDev
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RE: v1.11+NI: Window Behavior

Post by ComDev »

ORIGINAL: MarkShot

I didn't play much HC/H3/ANW. However, I see big improvements in this game both in terms of the game and technology.

There is one area of the UI which should be changed. Windows only come to the foreground when they are first opened. If they are open already and hidden, then hitting then appropriate key or menu option does nothing. They should always come to the foreground. I am using two monitors and the absence of this greatly negates the secondary monitor and free floating windows.

Thanks!

....ermm... huh?

Care to explain a little more?
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ComDev
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RE: v1.11+NI: Window Behavior

Post by ComDev »

ORIGINAL: MarkShot

Another oddity I noticed was that the game only seems to update the INI with new window positions when they are open upon game shutdown.

Thanks!

Yeah window positions are saved on window close IIRC.
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I1066
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RE: v1.11+NI: Window Behavior

Post by I1066 »

I think he means that if you fore example press F2 to show the throttle/altitude settings window, and then for some reason keep it open and it end up under (covered by) another window, then when you press F2 again, the throttle/altitude window is not activated and brought to the front, but stays hidden behind whatever it is that is covering it.
MarkShot
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RE: v1.11+NI: Window Behavior

Post by MarkShot »

Yep, that's it.
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Dimitris
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RE: v1.11+NI: Window Behavior

Post by Dimitris »

IIRC back in the early post-release days (v1.01 or so) secondary windows operated the way you describe. And we had a huge backlash on this because many people really, really hated having them be on top of whatever else they had on their big single monitor or on their secondary screen. So we changed it, and most users are happy with the way it currently works.

So you can understand we're reluctant to now go about monkeying with this again.
ComDev
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RE: v1.11+NI: Window Behavior

Post by ComDev »

Yeah :)

Care to post a screenshot so that we can see & understand how you use the game?
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I1066
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RE: v1.11+NI: Window Behavior

Post by I1066 »

It's easy to test.

1. Start Command and select Menu: View => "Message log in separate window"
2. Select a Group/unit and press F2 to show the Throttle/altitude settings window
3. Place the detached log window on top of the Throttle/Altitude window.
4. Press F2 again, and the Throttle/altitude settings window will still be hidden.
MarkShot
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RE: v1.11+NI: Window Behavior

Post by MarkShot »

Sunburn,

I cannot say I agree:

(1) This is inconstant with Windows UI programming. For example, like making SHIFT-INSERT=COPY and CTRL-C=PASTE.

(2) It is incredibly inconvenient. I must close every Window which is open to finally expose some window which I opened early on.

Besides multi-tasking, Windows brought a certain standard to application UIs. In DOS, it was a free for all.

[MOD: Removed [:)]].

I will stand by my position on proper UI design.

* I might be able to fix this with something like www.autohotkey.com by first doing a SENDKEY for the Window requested and after that activating it and bringing it forward. If I play the game enough, I will look into it. Then, bind these fixes to the same UI keys CMANO uses so that it is totally transparent.

Thanks.

PS: You might strike a compromise between players who don't use MSFT Windows enough to care and those that do. Add a WINDOW menu item which can be used to bring forward any window which is open.
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MarkShot
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RE: v1.11+NI: Window Behavior

Post by MarkShot »

I built my own Window Manager for the game. All windows are now selectable; even those without hot keys.

Whether they open or are already open, they come to the foreground as opposed to getting buried beneath other Windows.

This, by the way, is how Windows applications are, in general, supposed to behave (hidden/unreachable windows is a "no no").

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MarkShot
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RE: v1.11+NI: Window Behavior

Post by MarkShot »

The code was about 120 lines and runs alongside on demand.

The Windowing is all parametric to accommodate future releases (looking like this).

# Sequence is implicit
# Menu Name; Menu Item; Window Name; Menu Key; ItemNumber/FK/>ItemNumber;

View; Custom Layers; Custom Layer Manager; 1; 12;
Game; Order of Battle; Order of Battle - Missions & Tasks; 2; 5;
Game; Database Viewer; Database Viewer; 2; 6;
Game; Browse Scenario Platforms; Browse Scenario Platforms; 2; 7;
Game; Scenario Description; Scenario Description; 2; 8;
Game; Side Briefing; Side Briefing; 2; 9;
Game; Doctrine & ROE for side; Doctrine & ROE for side; 2; 10;
Game; Special Actions; SpecialActionsForm; 2; 11;
#Game; Satellite pass predications <=== HANDLE ON TASK BAR
Game; Loses & Expenditures; Loses & Expenditures; 2; 15;
Game; Scoring; Scoring; 2; 16;
Game; Options; Options; 2; 17;
#Unit Orders; Attack Options (auto) <=== HANDLE ON TASK BAR
#Unit Orders; Attack Options (manual) <=== HANDLE ON TASK BAR
#Unit Orders; Attack Options (BOL) <=== HANDLE ON TASK BAR
Unit Orders; Throttle & Altitude; Throttle & Altitude; 5; 3;
Unit Orders; Magazines; Magazine status; 5; 5;
Unit Orders; Air Operations; Air Ops; 5; 6;
#Boat Docking <=== Need to see this later
Unit Orders; Weapons; Weapons for; 5; 8;
Unit Orders; Sensors; Sensors for; 5; 9;
Unit Orders; Damage + System Status; Damage Status for; 5; 10;
Unit Orders; Formation Editor; Formation Editor; 5; {F4};
Unit Orders; Doctrine & ROE for unit; Doctrine & ROE for unit; 5; 20;
Mission + Ref Points; Mission Editor; Mission Editor; 7; 1;
Mission + Ref Points; Add new mission; New Mission; 7; 2;
Mission + Ref Points; No-Navigation Zones; Edit No-Navigation Zones; 7; >15;
Mission + Ref Points; Exclusion Zones; Edit Exclusion Zones; 7; >16;
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Dimitris
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RE: v1.11+NI: Window Behavior

Post by Dimitris »

Thanks, logged. We'll take a look at the first opportunity.
MarkShot
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RE: v1.11+NI: Window Behavior

Post by MarkShot »

May I also suggest the following besides the issue of windows not being brought to the foreground ... I noticed some other non-standard oddities:

(1) Some window location/sizes are only generated once upon program close if they are currently open; and possibly if there is no entry in the INI file already. This means that some windows can never be moved again and remembered.

(2) Some windows seem to remember within an application session what was their last size and location, but I don't believe you are updating the INI file. Perhaps, you are simply hiding/showing them for display speed rather than destroying/creating them.

(3) Some windows appear on the Windows Task Bar and are selectable as such like: Message Log, Weapons, Attack, ... But most don't.

(4) Some windows have trouble binding to their context object (the unit) like the Speed&Throttle window. ONLY when launched with F2; not the MENU, it fails to get its context object. This ONLY happens when there is not other window open already holding that context object. (You clearly see this by lack of context object in the window title and that the field layout is in appropriate for an aircraft.)

(5) Some windows open up too small to be useful like the error preventing you to create a mission. The warning is way too small and the window is not resizable. The explanation cannot be read.

(6) Many windows have drop down list items which extend way beyond the right window boundary and often the physical display, as well, like the RTB conditions. The entire window must be moved to make these long entries readable.

(7) Some windows simply truncate meaningful text. I think the Air Ops or the Weapons does this.

My suggestion is that you draw up a detailed window health check spreadsheet. Then, you go check the 30 odd windows the game displays. Then, decide what your standards are to be, and where possible route window handling through a single code module.

---

Before the above gets deleted as being "pompous", I do want to say that you have assembled a very comprehensive and impressive simulation.

Thank you.
2021 - Resigned in writing as a 20+ year Matrix Beta and never looked back ...
mikmykWS
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RE: v1.11+NI: Window Behavior

Post by mikmykWS »

Thanks Mark. We'll definitely keep this in mind.

Mike
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