stacking units: Ideally and realistically, how should it work in WITE?

Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: The German-Soviet War 1941-1945 is a turn-based World War II strategy game stretching across the entire Eastern Front. Gamers can engage in an epic campaign, including division-sized battles with realistic and historical terrain, weather, orders of battle, logistics and combat results.

The critically and fan-acclaimed Eastern Front mega-game Gary Grigsby’s War in the East just got bigger and better with Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: Don to the Danube! This expansion to the award-winning War in the East comes with a wide array of later war scenarios ranging from short but intense 6 turn bouts like the Battle for Kharkov (1942) to immense 37-turn engagements taking place across multiple nations like Drama on the Danube (Summer 1944 – Spring 1945).

Moderators: Joel Billings, elmo3, Sabre21

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Mamluke
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stacking units: Ideally and realistically, how should it work in WITE?

Post by Mamluke »

so, stacking units, in game its a simple 3 units per hex.

however, this creates some funny situations, like the Germans can at best stack like 30K to at max 40K men in a hex (3 Inf Divs at 12K men)

yet, thanks to the rifle core, the Soviets can, with SU, stack over 90K men! in a single hex

its makes me wonder, how should the stacking system work, in your opinion, to simulate reality in our game? this is more of a learning exercise then a game suggestion by the why.

also, how should stacking units work in WITE 2 for better game play and realism? (game play is still more important, I recognize that)

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mrchuck
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RE: stacking units: Ideally and realistically, how should it work in WITE?

Post by mrchuck »

Nothing new about this. Every east front game since S&T WITE in 1973-ish has worked much the same way.
And the CV of a german div will still be comparable to a soviet corps, give or take casualties, supply etc.

This seems to be a set of assumptions built in by generations of game designers. Perhaps someone needs to have a new look at it, based on actual operational densities both possible and achieved?
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Michael T
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RE: stacking units: Ideally and realistically, how should it work in WITE?

Post by Michael T »

I beg to differ. Many games (board games at least) take stacking density in to account for East War 41-45. That is to differentiate between Corp and Division or between Army and Corp in the case of grand strategic type games.
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mrchuck
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RE: stacking units: Ideally and realistically, how should it work in WITE?

Post by mrchuck »

OK, I should have said 'most' not 'all'.

But I had a look at one extreme example of the alternative (DNO) once and in the board game era, it was basically unplayable.

One notion I've always had, which I've never seen put into effect, but would be quite feasible with computer games, is to have ZOC's dynamic. They should be computed by the strength and type of the units trying to exert them, and the units trying to get around them. So you wouldn't be able to hold up a full-strength 1941 panzer corps very much, for example, with an understrength infantry division lacking AT. The corps would simply brush past it with minimal or no movement cost.

This might lead to some very gamey defensive systems being a lot less viable, and improve the feel of the game.

The other notion I have seen, for example in Operation Crusader and the other games in the series, is different unit stances which affect movement and combat. There is a big difference between deployment for rapid movement and for all-out assault, and I feel that WITE is sufficiently small-scale (just) to make the distinction worth modelling, or at least investigating. The big advantage for mechanised forces, of course, being the flexibility to switch from one mode to the other very rapidly.
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Michael T
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RE: stacking units: Ideally and realistically, how should it work in WITE?

Post by Michael T »

FYI the game you site (DNO) evolved in to FITE/SE. It has no stacking issues. The only Corp in the game are Soviet Arm/Mech units which for all practical purposes are the equivalent to divisions.

To be honest I can't think of any current board games on the subject that don't take different stacking in to account for Soviet INF Corp and German Divisions. But this is not the point. We are in agreement on the principle here. But it has all been raised before, everything you have cited. Nothing has been done.

I have no idea if things are going to be improved in WITE 2.0. But I doubt it.

FYI Tillers Strategic War based stacking on a points system per hex, worked great. Really nice system. But it never really took off and never made it to the east front. Sad as it had so much potential. If only they had started the series with a East Front game rather than France 1940.

It's a funny thing but as much as people like to claim PC games to be more advanced than board games, in fact most modern board games on similar subject matter and scale have much more sophisticated zoc and stacking rules than WITE or WITW.
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javats
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RE: stacking units: Ideally and realistically, how should it work in WITE?

Post by javats »

For(DNO/FITE) it was my under standing that it was a simple way to represent the increasing capabilities of the soviet army as the war progress,but keep the unit vs unit German advantage.

Example: in 1941 German infantry div had a 10:1 advantage 6-8 plus game modifiers, But as soviet gained ability to form Corp. the German lost that advantage Div. vs soviet corp. (really a large Div, but it could stack 3.
Now if the German had "full" 3 Inf Div vs 3 Sov. inf corp 24 vs 12, but still had 6 vs 1 Div on Div.
It reflected nicely the massing the Sov. learned to do. (heaven help you, if you were one of the masses).

When playing as a Ger. and a newly formed Corp. appeared in the front line, always I cut it out and kill it.

I always liked idea of stacking of 3 units plus 1 non-division size. GG-WITE solution of attaching a sub-unit to a Division seemed to be a very nice solution.[8D]

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Michael T
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RE: stacking units: Ideally and realistically, how should it work in WITE?

Post by Michael T »

I think you are missing a point here perhaps. Its not the Arm/Mech Corps that are the problem. It's the Soviet Infantry Corp that are the issue. They typically represent at least the equivalent of 2 full divisions each. So that's like having 6 ID in the hex.

A good solution might be only allowing 2 INF Corp per hex or 1 INF Corp and two other units.

But try finding a Soviet player who would support it. And you would need quite a few of them. Good luck.
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EwaldvonKleist
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RE: stacking units: Ideally and realistically, how should it work in WITE?

Post by EwaldvonKleist »

Stacking System is highly unrealistic in WITE. In reality, there is limit how many tanks/guns / man can effectively fight on a given area. So stacking limit is a question of the unit toe. So 3 full strength divs on a hex but 4 understrenghth. Big units like Korps give a Bonus cause better organisation.
MechFO
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RE: stacking units: Ideally and realistically, how should it work in WITE?

Post by MechFO »

Well the Soviets did do extremely dense concentrations on the offensive, and this was to simulate that. Of course it breaks down because those kind of concentrations would be very detrimental defensively and against arty/GS which the engine doesn't reflect.

TOAW got it right a long time ago with hex densities acting as multiplier for losses. It's a shame that system didn't get any further development, the framework for combat as well as the inclusion of the concept of synchronisation between combat-movement is still top notch.
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Commanderski
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RE: stacking units: Ideally and realistically, how should it work in WITE?

Post by Commanderski »

You also need to take into consideration that the turns are at one week intervals and any attacks are not at the same time. You can have that many men and tanks traverse an area of 10 kilometers (1 hex) over a period of one week. They are not always at the front of the hex standing on each others shoulders...[:)]
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Joel Billings
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RE: stacking units: Ideally and realistically, how should it work in WITE?

Post by Joel Billings »

I could argue that all stacking and movement rules at the operational and strategic levels are full of abstractions, some more than others. The fundamental reality is that altering the interface to stack more units is very messy. It's doable, but time consuming and has issues that players might not enjoy (in boardgames, I hated games where I could stack large numbers of units/info counters in a hex, because my hands couldn't do it without knocking something over and you had to keep looking at the stacks to figure out what was there. Sure, more realistic, but at what cost? That said, I can't tell you for sure what will end up in WitE2, but I'll remind you that there are reserve and support rules that allow players the ability to bring in more units to a combat than just what's in the hex (although I realize with less control). Moving lots of units through an area can be difficult, because most units have to move on roads (certainly if they want to move quickly), and there are only so many roads. We continue to debate/struggle with how to handle admin movement. Bottom line, computer games are not as easy as boardgames to change fundamental rules, so there's a big cost associated with what can seem like the simplest of changes. I do appreciate the desire and justification for more "realistic" stacking rules, although keep in mind that doctrine and other factors can often trump hard facts like how many men/guns could you squeeze into a 10x10 mile area. Maybe it's just me, but the only place I see us having a big stacking problem (assuming we are dealing with other things correctly) is with certain ports and urban areas, where larger numbers of troops were massed.
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MechFO
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RE: stacking units: Ideally and realistically, how should it work in WITE?

Post by MechFO »

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings
Maybe it's just me, but the only place I see us having a big stacking problem (assuming we are dealing with other things correctly) is with certain ports and urban areas, where larger numbers of troops were massed.

The Infantry Corps are a problem. Reserve activations do not enjoy the advantage of forts. The huge size of the corps allow defensive concentrations which are nearly impossible to attack.
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Michael T
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RE: stacking units: Ideally and realistically, how should it work in WITE?

Post by Michael T »

Joel, I can think of no other game where a Soviet INF corp = a German Division for stacking purposes, and that is what WITE does. You can't sugar coat it or dance around it. It's just wrong. It should get fixed. It should be a priority to get fundamental things right. Variable zoc costs is another problem (or lack of I should say). How can no one in the engine room not see that a security regiment should not have the same amount of glue as a fully stacked hex of mobile units?

Idea: You say the Soviets need Corps to alleviate counter density. I agree. So make the playing field equal. Let the Germans create Corp units too. At least then a Kursk style attack is at least feasible and the unfairness of the stacking rules is fixed.
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RE: stacking units: Ideally and realistically, how should it work in WITE?

Post by Cavalry Corp »

May I add as I am just getting into this game but have done a lot of gaming...

I am playing scenarios mainly as gaining experience for the big one.

I cannot understand why HQ count for stacking for both sides as they would always be in the back of the hex and the actual HQ staff are quite small the other stuff like trucks etc are not in any particular hex but kind of in a supply string heading toward the next HQ or rail.

I think that German Art Brigades are handicapped and should be SU style, having them count against stacking makes them pretty bad really ( OK they can be in reserve) but if they were a SU they would be really good - other units like Stug X and some X are SU??? Do not understand this logic of having these units on the map.

As regards German corps mentioned above I agree - for certain GD and HG ( which are designated as Corps are they not and in my Sleigh ride scn I am playing now) should allowed to combine to be a corps size unit and maybe other elite ones as well like 2SS Corps and others at Kursk. It is true that these units would be very powerful but it would be a very rare event when they could be deployed as such but it is a good and realistic idea.

Thanks



rmonical
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RE: stacking units: Ideally and realistically, how should it work in WITE?

Post by rmonical »

Allow the Germans to convert regiments to support units and attach them to a division. WITW has a vaguely similar mechanism. Then the Germans can get 6 divisions in a hex as well. This is not trivial to implement.
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morvael
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RE: stacking units: Ideally and realistically, how should it work in WITE?

Post by morvael »

ORIGINAL: rmonical

Allow the Germans to convert regiments to support units and attach them to a division. WITW has a vaguely similar mechanism. Then the Germans can get 6 divisions in a hex as well. This is not trivial to implement.

You could enable this for standalone regiments even today :)
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RE: stacking units: Ideally and realistically, how should it work in WITE?

Post by Cavalry Corp »

Turn them into SU - how please ? What about the late war German Art Brigades!! :)
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morvael
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RE: stacking units: Ideally and realistically, how should it work in WITE?

Post by morvael »

See 1.08.05 new feature 29. To ensure that balance of existing scenarios is not altered by huge number of possible combat units (or stronger combat units) this feature is not active by default, so it will only work for games running custom generic data.
MechFO
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RE: stacking units: Ideally and realistically, how should it work in WITE?

Post by MechFO »

ORIGINAL: rmonical

Allow the Germans to convert regiments to support units and attach them to a division. WITW has a vaguely similar mechanism. Then the Germans can get 6 divisions in a hex as well. This is not trivial to implement.

It's physically impossible to have 6 divisions defending effectively in a 10x10 km box, even in flat terrain. If there are any kind of terrain features, forest, hills etc., usable space drops even more. Effective force x space ratio has a bell curve as well.

Allowing too high force densities per se is not a problem, the problem is there are no negative consequences.
rmonical
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RE: stacking units: Ideally and realistically, how should it work in WITE?

Post by rmonical »

ORIGINAL: MechFO

ORIGINAL: rmonical

Allow the Germans to convert regiments to support units and attach them to a division. WITW has a vaguely similar mechanism. Then the Germans can get 6 divisions in a hex as well. This is not trivial to implement.

It's physically impossible to have 6 divisions defending effectively in a 10x10 km box, even in flat terrain. If there are any kind of terrain features, forest, hills etc., usable space drops even more. Effective force x space ratio has a bell curve as well.

Allowing too high force densities per se is not a problem, the problem is there are no negative consequences.


Agree. This density is for the attack. There is probably a tweak on bombardment casualties - that is where density hurts.
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