The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak

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aaatoysandmore
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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak

Post by aaatoysandmore »

ORIGINAL: Tesuji
ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

I dunno when I was 13 I wanted every Avalon Hill game made and they were like $3.64 and my mom said they were too expensive. [:'(]
If she'd only lived to see the price of games today. [:D]

Luckily though I got $3.00 to $5.00 mowing yards so bought as many as "I" could afford.

Bought the original "Guadacanal" from a friend for $3.00 man did I make mint off that game years later. [:D]

Ok, let me rephrase again. What I meant was it was just as difficult back then to *make a profit* selling complex games, and you sorta confirm that. [:)]

Think of all the great gaming companies that went under, even those who had cashcows: Parker (Risk), Milton Bradley (Axis and Allies), Microprose (Civilization), SSI,...

I'm not so sure it had so much to do with money as it had to do with "interest" and greed. Out of the thousands of people I became aquainted with and even schoolmates only 4 that I knew were interested in wargaming.

Sure money plays a part in that also, but, had there been more interest like say in a game of Monopoly or LIFE they wouldn't have disappeared so quickly. Avalon Hill was around a very long time as I recall. SSI not so much.

The thing is games are not like toilet paper. We don't "need" games as much as we need toilet paper. [:'(]

On the other hand we can look at distribution centers like Electronic Arts an Activision and even Sega. They have been around a long long time. Ever since the Intellivision as I recall. They have absorbed a lot of these gaming companies and ended up deciding who stays and who goes. Like Hasbro with Squad Leader they never capitalized on the game sadly. If you want to call the crap they made with the Squad Leader name a Squad Leader clone ot the game Avalon Hill made you'd be sorely mistaken.

The best of times before corporate greed set in was in the 80's and early 90' before Windows 95. Look how many years we got by on Windows 3.1. Why do we need a new OS now nearly every 3 years?

There was a time when developers just made the games for the love of making them and not the money. The "Ultima's", many of the older SSI titles, Sid Meier's early developments and some of the best rpg's you ever played. Once animation and 32bit graphics took hold though they forgot about making 'great' games and then just got into making games for the money and boy did the bugs and unfinished games start to pour out. Patching is a "common" word now. There were two games over the years from 1982 to 1993 that I remember getting patches for in the mail. Ultima II and Master of Magic 1.31. Thas a lot of years and games I never needed a patch.
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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak

Post by aaatoysandmore »

ORIGINAL: Hattori Hanzo
So - in general, I think the industry is doing well overall and I'm enjoying my hobby today as much as I did 10 or 15 years ago.

I agree, I enjoy my Wargames and Strategy Games passion today (both in their boardgame and computer game forms) as much as I enjoyed it 30 years ago.. [:)]

Can't say "I" agree with that. It's just not the same anymore. What I see it totally different from what you see. Perhaps I have more hours into gaming than you over the last 30 years. [:'(]

What I will say though is I enjoy 30 year old games better than I do today's games. [:'(]
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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak

Post by Hattori Hanzo »

What I will say though is I enjoy 30 year old games better than I do today's games.

well, in this moment I'm playing the original "Master of Orion".. [:'(]

and yesterday I played solo an old wargame from "The Wargamer" magazine: The Rise of the House of Sa'ud..

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/845 ... house-saud

but I like to play also more modern war-strategy-games as Distant Worlds or AGEOD Birth of Rome.. [8D]
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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak

Post by Hattori Hanzo »

here were two games over the years from 1982 to 1993 that I remember getting patches for in the mail. Ultima II and Master of Magic 1.31.

in that same period (1992-1993) I remember to having received in my mailbox a FREE floppy disk with the last patch directly from the MicroProse USA (WOW, I was living in Italy that years..) for Master of Orion, DarkLands and another computer game that I don't remember now: sweet game memories.. [X(]
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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak

Post by CaptBeefheart »

Back around that time (maybe slightly later) PC Gamer would bundle a CD-ROM of game patches and demos in each issue. That was one of the few ways to update your games. As a result, games came out of the chute finished, unlike a lot of betas we see from some publishers nowadays.

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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak

Post by pzgndr »

ORIGINAL: DonCzirr
ORIGINAL: Hattori Hanzo
I'm an old school boardgame "grognard" (55 years old) and I know exactly the meaning of "complex wargames".. [;)]

Ah ... from the old 3rd Reich in the Friend's Basement generation like me [:)]

+1

Argh, back in the days when graphics were terrible, there was no such thing as a GUI, no tutorials on YouTube with somebody talking you through a game turn step by step, and the AI (ie, you) sucked playing the game. My God, it was beautiful... [:D]
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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak

Post by Hattori Hanzo »

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

ORIGINAL: DonCzirr
ORIGINAL: Hattori Hanzo
I'm an old school boardgame "grognard" (55 years old) and I know exactly the meaning of "complex wargames".. [;)]

Ah ... from the old 3rd Reich in the Friend's Basement generation like me [:)]

+1

Argh, back in the days when graphics were terrible, there was no such thing as a GUI, no tutorials on YouTube with somebody talking you through a game turn step by step, and the AI (ie, you) sucked playing the game. My God, it was beautiful... [:D]

no YouTube yes, but there was the wonderful strategy articles on Computer Gaming World and/or PC Gamer.. [;)]

and for the boardgames the Avalon Hill General magazines.. I still have my complete original collection [&o]
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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak

Post by warspite1 »

...or for us WIF fans there was the Canadian Wargamers Journal [:)]

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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak

Post by Aurelian »

ORIGINAL: Hattori Hanzo

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

ORIGINAL: DonCzirr



Ah ... from the old 3rd Reich in the Friend's Basement generation like me [:)]

+1

Argh, back in the days when graphics were terrible, there was no such thing as a GUI, no tutorials on YouTube with somebody talking you through a game turn step by step, and the AI (ie, you) sucked playing the game. My God, it was beautiful... [:D]

no YouTube yes, but there was the wonderful strategy articles on Computer Gaming World and/or PC Gamer.. [;)]

and for the boardgames the Avalon Hill General magazines.. I still have my complete original collection [&o]

And if you don't..... http://www.vftt.co.uk/ah_mags.asp?ProdID=PDF_Gen
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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak

Post by sIg3b »

ORIGINAL: Hattori Hanzo
Think of all the great gaming companies that went under, even those who had cashcows: Parker (Risk), Milton Bradley (Axis and Allies), Microprose (Civilization), SSI,...

well.. I would not consider "Risk" and "Axis and Allies" under the same category of "Civilization"..
and anyway they are not at all "Complex Wargames.. [:-] [8D]

Not even CivI was a complex Wargame. But those games were all cashcows. [:)]

Besides, Risk and A&A have certainly been used to get beginners interested. I´m not saying it always works. Even A&A type games have been a hard sell to my friends because they find them so complicated. [:'(]
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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak

Post by sIg3b »

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore
There was a time when developers just made the games for the love of making them and not the money. The "Ultima's", many of the older SSI titles, Sid Meier's early developments and some of the best rpg's you ever played.

Man, I am totally with you on this. Still, let´s face it: Wargames have always been a niche market. And developers do not want to starve. Ideally, they would produce a game for the mass market every now and then to fund the more esoteric projects that do not pay so well. But it´s a difficult balancing job.

Add pirating (was not so much of a problem with boardgames [:'(] ), and I am surprised that a worthwhile game comes around every few years or so.
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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak

Post by warspite1 »

aaatoysandmore
There was a time when developers just made the games for the love of making them and not the money.

Just out of interest, where does that stat come from? Who were these wargaming philanthropists and what happened to them? Why did they all stop making games for the love and start actually wanting to earn a living?

Just curious.
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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak

Post by sIg3b »

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

And if you don't..... http://www.vftt.co.uk/ah_mags.asp?ProdID=PDF_Gen

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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak

Post by catwhoorg »

ORIGINAL: warspite1
aaatoysandmore
There was a time when developers just made the games for the love of making them and not the money.

Just out of interest, where does that stat come from? Who were these wargaming philanthropists and what happened to them? Why did they all stop making games for the love and start actually wanting to earn a living?

Just curious.

Easy, they went out of business. Even Wargaming philanthropists have to eat.
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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak

Post by Kuokkanen »

ORIGINAL: warspite1
aaatoysandmore
There was a time when developers just made the games for the love of making them and not the money.

Just out of interest, where does that stat come from? Who were these wargaming philanthropists and what happened to them? Why did they all stop making games for the love and start actually wanting to earn a living?

Just curious.
I've read about that. They're all over the Internet. They make simple games with 0 budget and they try to make them sell through services like Steam and AppStore for $5 and less. Several comes available every day. Some of them are available for free and few are decent. Like Half-Life as 2d platformer game (I forgot game's name). As for the rest: try them if you dare.

Also there are some really great games that are indeed made for the love of it. Best ones I know are MegaMek and MekWars. MegaMek is very faithful adaptation of BattleTech wargame and follows its rules to the letter. Game is totally open source, source code is available for everyone to do whatever they want with it, and people spontaneously work together to develop the game. One guy got into development becouse he wanted helicopters to the game. As I recall from memory: "becouse I love my chopters and I want company of Yellow Jackets flying before summer is out." Certainly there are problems, and this same guy listed few of them, including:
Code about movement is a mess
Parts of the code has not been commented becouse it didn't seem necessary at the time
Most of the code assumes hex has only 1 unit, and addition of buildings made it possible to stack multiple units on different elevations
Area effect artillery damages airborne units (including helicopters)
And it's made with Java: code once, debug everywhere

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

There was a time when developers just made the games for the love of making them and not the money. The "Ultima's", many of the older SSI titles, Sid Meier's early developments and some of the best rpg's you ever played.
If you really are of that opinion, you can look for games of the time and play some you may have missed. Of the RPG genre I can name Wizardry series, Quest for Glory, Elder Scrolls: Arena (1994), Might & Magic, Gold Box RPGs, and Final Fantasy (since 1987). I have tried few of them in this millennia, including some of the Ultimas. Final Fantasy 4 is neat, but most of the rest didn't feel much of fun.
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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak

Post by 76mm »

Speaking of amateur games, there is the excellent North Africa game which has a thread here somewhere. Very innovative and well-done, although I haven't seen much from the dev lately; he seems to be polishing the AI at the moment. Honestly a very cool game.
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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak

Post by Hattori Hanzo »

to start you can try "Fighting Flattops", a remake of the Battleline-Avalon Hill "Flat Top" Pacific WW2 wargame playable for free on the web:

http://www.fightingflattops.com/

or PlanetsNu, a remake of Tim Wisseman VGA Planets: a space 4X not bad at all - also this one is playable for free on the web:

http://planets.nu/#/start

and there are many others strategy and wargames playable for free on the web.. [8D]



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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak

Post by wings7 »

ORIGINAL: Hattori Hanzo

to start you can try "Fighting Flattops", a remake of the Battleline-Avalon Hill "Flat Top" Pacific WW2 wargame playable for free on the web:

http://www.fightingflattops.com/

or PlanetsNu, a remake of Tim Wisseman VGA Planets: a space 4X not bad at all - also this one is playable for free on the web:

http://planets.nu/#/start

and there are many others strategy and wargames playable for free on the web.. [8D]




Have you played "Fighting Flattops"? How do you like it? The original Avalon Hill "Flat Top" was a classic! [:)]
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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak

Post by aaatoysandmore »

ORIGINAL: warspite1
aaatoysandmore
There was a time when developers just made the games for the love of making them and not the money.

Just out of interest, where does that stat come from? Who were these wargaming philanthropists and what happened to them? Why did they all stop making games for the love and start actually wanting to earn a living?

Just curious.

Google is your friend Yahoo search engine also. Look something up once in awhile. [:'(]
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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak

Post by wings7 »

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

ORIGINAL: warspite1
aaatoysandmore
There was a time when developers just made the games for the love of making them and not the money.

Just out of interest, where does that stat come from? Who were these wargaming philanthropists and what happened to them? Why did they all stop making games for the love and start actually wanting to earn a living?

Just curious.

Google is your friend Yahoo search engine also. Look something up once in awhile. [:'(]

[>:][8|]
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