New Scenario - The Bear and the Dragon

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DismalPseudoscience
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New Scenario - The Bear and the Dragon

Post by DismalPseudoscience »

Command Chinese forces in an amphibious assault on Vladivostok. But be warned - the submarine and SAM threat is extremely high. What price will you pay to break through the Russian defenses?

I've tried to be as parsimonious as possible in doling out forces to the player despite the presence of something approximating a realistic level of Russian resistance. ASW is China's most glaring weakness, and this scenario is intended to highlight that.

Key questions for testers:
1. Does the air battle feel relevant to the surface action?
2. Is it possible to overcome the Russian air defenses, or at least degrade them?
3. Are the Russian subs behaving intelligently?
4. If you lost, what reinforcements would you need to win? If you won, was anything useless to you? What could the enemy have done to ruin your plan?
5. Is the scoring fair?

Thanks for playing!

Edit: Uploaded a new version of the scenario.
Edit2: Uploaded a new version (5.31.2015, 10:30 PM)
Edit3: New version (6.3.2016, 12:02 AM)
Edit4: New version (6.8.2016, 10:34 PM)
Edit5: New Version (6.9.2016, 9:58 PM)
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Excroat3
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RE: New Scenario - The Bear and the Dragon

Post by Excroat3 »

I'm going to start playing it tomorrow, just looking over it tonight, but I have a few points before I dive into the scenario:

Clear the message log
Should Russia be a playable side?
Might want to include the year in the scenario name, for example: The Bear and the Dragon, 2023. I was not sure of the date of the scenario until I took a closer look at the units
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wild_Willie2
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RE: New Scenario - The Bear and the Dragon

Post by wild_Willie2 »

Ok, I just had my first play through and this scenario has great potential, but needs some fine tuning.

The air battles up north are basically just a practice in "lure the Russian fighters in range of your SAM umbrella" game play. The current AI programming could use some fine tuning and I would make it much more defensive then it is now to increase the difficulty. After killing some of the Russian fighters on the ground with my IRMB's and the rest with my SAMs (you cant take them in a strait up fight as all their AA missiles outrage yours), I threw most of my Kryptons against that SA-25 near Vladivostok and only made it run out of ammo without hitting it a single time. The rest of my kryptons I BOL launched against the fleet near Vladivostok and I took out the Udaloy and Sovremenny up north with this tactic while taking out the entire north eastern FAC group with that northern diesel electric sub. The only real challenges in this scenario are the Akulas (they can dive deeper than the max depth of the Chinese ASW torpedo's) and those shipwreck Oscars (Although with an A-50 on station over the invasion fleet, this threat was also minimal).

I would change the mission of the Chinese air to degrading the the SAM umbrella near Vladivostok (they need more ELINT, Recon, ARM and cruise missiles for this) in order to establish air superiority over the invasion area and would station the A-50's in Qingdoa instead so they can easier provide over-watch for the invasion fleet. I would also put in some Chinese tankers so the invasion fleet can have an effective CAP overhead. The Russians on their turn also need to move their A-50's to the west so they can detect and engage the Chinese more effectively.

The Russian surface forces are more or less useless as they are now, they need to stay closer to shore and have better SAM, ASW air and submarine cover in order to survive long enough to come into SSM missile engagement range with the Chinese fleet. That TF north is sitting there doing nothing, I would combine it with the Vladivostok units so you have a much better and more powerful fleet to begin with (now your forces can be defeated in detail).

After closing in on the landing area, it's very hard to find and destroy the Russian artillery pieces, you really need some dedicated recon aircraft to do this. The Russian Kilo's where sitting ducks for my ASW units, none of them even got of a shot before getting killed, put in a 100 or so false contacts or biological to make things more interesting. This scenario also needs clouds that can be used to mask movement, there are plenty of stealth craft in game, but now they can spot each other from 50 miles away so surprising an opponent is very difficult.

This scenario has great potential but needs some more fine tuning.

Keep up the good work

W.
In vinum illic est sapientia , in matera illic est vires , in aqua illic es bacteria.

In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there are bacteria.
Excroat3
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RE: New Scenario - The Bear and the Dragon

Post by Excroat3 »

I have played a few hours into the scenario, and my comments are generally the same as willie's

Please have more Chinese fighters ready at start, I had no way of stopping the russian horde of fighters, and my SAMs were down for 40 minutes to reload after the first 8 shots (which all missed, btw) so it was a slaughter of all my assets. The fact that the Russian SAMs have such a small reload time versus the Chinese ones basically denied me even the basic ability to contest the airspace. After all my fighters and AEW was wiped out (I didn't even detect any SAM launchers) The Mig-31s had a field day with my ASW helicopters and ASW aircraft. My only revenge was using my SSMs to destroy the piers at Vladivostok and destroy some fighters at other airbases. I will try to restart and use willie's tactics, but I definitely think that he got lucky (I watched 2 Su-35s dodge 8 PL-12Cs, EACH!) I agree that the scenario has potential.
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wild_Willie2
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RE: New Scenario - The Bear and the Dragon

Post by wild_Willie2 »

Hi Excroat,

Set your SAM engagement range to 75% of maximum for much better results.
Also, turn your radars of and ignore the fist Russian fighter sweep (RUN AWAY :) ) and meanwhile move your SAM's to a single location and then bate the MIG-31's and PAk's with a nice and juicy A-50 in such a way that they have to fly directly over your SAM's to get to it ;) Keep your ASW helo's within 10km or so of your fleet, as a fighter sweeps comes in, either return them or set them to zero feet so they wont get targeted (height difference problems).

I basically gamed the hell out of this mission in order to advance the game-play just to see what would happen next.
If I could play as the Russians with this setup, I would have a guaranteed win 100% of the time as the Russian fighters significantly outrange the Chinese fighters and also have more of them so there basically is no contest to even begin with.

W.



In vinum illic est sapientia , in matera illic est vires , in aqua illic es bacteria.

In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there are bacteria.
DismalPseudoscience
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RE: New Scenario - The Bear and the Dragon

Post by DismalPseudoscience »

Thank you both very much for your feedback - it was very helpful.

I've uploaded a new version with the following changes:

1. Rather than pare back the aggressive Russian fighter sweeps, I've added more SEAD capability to them so they are less vulnerable to being baited over SAMs.
2. In order to make degrading the Russian shore defenses and SAM network more feasible, I've added a regiment of JH-7As armed with ARMs, ELINT pods, LACMs, and other good stuff, as well as some UAVs.
3. I've canceled the Russian bombing attack on Harbin - it was too high-risk and low-reward for them
4. I've moved the Russian A-50 patrol zone to the West
5. I've moved 2 Chinese AEW planes from Harbin to Qingdao to make overwatch for the fleet possible.
6. I've added Chinese tankers
7. I've added a large number of neutral whales and false contacts to make sub hunting more challenging
8. I've moved the Russian northern battlegroup closer to friendly SAM cover
9. I've changed Russian rules of engagement and WRAs to eliminate unnecessary whale killing, and more efficient ship killing
10. I've given the Russians the use of two unpleasant surprises

What do y'all think of the revised version? Are the Russian surprises too surprising? Do you need more fighters? My intention is for the scenario to be highly difficult, but possible without resorting to exploiting the AI's weaknesses. Is this version closer to that vision, or has the pendulum swung too far?

Thank you!
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wild_Willie2
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RE: New Scenario - The Bear and the Dragon

Post by wild_Willie2 »

I had a look at your changes but am afraid that providing the Russians with more SEAD will make air operations more or less impossible for the Chinese. The Russian Arrow missile has three to four times the range of the Chinese AA missiles and will make engagements very costly for the Chinese, and as you only have 30 fighters to begin with I expect that I will run out within a day or so...

I will give it a try to see if this assumption is correct.

W.
In vinum illic est sapientia , in matera illic est vires , in aqua illic es bacteria.

In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there are bacteria.
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wild_Willie2
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RE: New Scenario - The Bear and the Dragon

Post by wild_Willie2 »

Ok, I am a few hours in and have to say that you really spiced up this scenario :s

A few things are already apparent:

1) the Chinese FAC groups do not have enough fuel (even on creep speed) to get into SSM range with any of the Russian forces. I would replace them with longer range ships that are more then just coastal defense units.
2) Anshan needs more ammo, I already ran out of Pl-10's while killing your surprises and cant select a load out without them.
3) The Russians do not have no fly zones and thus can fly over places that the Chinese units cant go.
4) The extra Russian SEAD planes make it much harder to win the air-war over China, the clouds make it now possible to kill the MIG-31's, but the PAK's are extremely difficult to take out with this setup as you don't have a SAM radar left after 24 hours of game time... Its doable, but not easy....

W.
In vinum illic est sapientia , in matera illic est vires , in aqua illic es bacteria.

In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there are bacteria.
U6443
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RE: New Scenario - The Bear and the Dragon

Post by U6443 »

Hi
The same for me. I managed to keep the SAM only because I turn the radar off just bevore the ARM hits the Radar and the ARM fly over it.. I need the SAM Radar for help detect the PAK. And I approach the Chinese stealth fighter into the clouds near the PAK's. On this way I can get very close to the PAK.
I have also a spotter Aircraft above the clouds to help spotting this PAK's. So you can get air superiority but a lot of micromanagement
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RE: New Scenario - The Bear and the Dragon

Post by wild_Willie2 »

Another issue, my naval forces are running out of SAMs because they have to shoot at so many bloody Russian missiles (e.g 120 shipwrecks. 32 P-800's and 48 AS-4's)......
I cant have an effective CAP over the fleet because North Korea is in the way and my nine remaining J-20's are busy hunting PAk's. I would program this scenario in such a way that the North Koreans help the Chinese (or are forced to) by opening up their airspace. If you do this, the scenario would be much more playable then it is now. Either that or give the Chinese a carrier.

W.
In vinum illic est sapientia , in matera illic est vires , in aqua illic es bacteria.

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Excroat3
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RE: New Scenario - The Bear and the Dragon

Post by Excroat3 »

I thought about the North Korea question, I just imagined that by 2023, Korea had become unified, so now the entire peninsula is hostile to China. I have the same points as willie, a carrier would definitely help.
DismalPseudoscience
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RE: New Scenario - The Bear and the Dragon

Post by DismalPseudoscience »

Thank you both very much for testing. In response to your comments, I've added a Chinese carrier and replaced the FACs with some older destroyers. In exchange, the Russians got a slight buff to their Backfire strike, but overall I expect the mission to be substantially more feasible. Please let me know if you have any other comments or recommendations, and thank you for playing!
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wild_Willie2
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RE: New Scenario - The Bear and the Dragon

Post by wild_Willie2 »

I just had a quick look and it seems that most of the previous issues have been addressed now. The Chinese now have the means to protect their fleet and if you now loose ships its your own stupid fault :)
I will have another play through this evening to check this scenario out, it might even be a good idea to give the Russians some extra PAK's that fly cap over Vladivostok and protect their bears and Nells over the ocean...

In vinum illic est sapientia , in matera illic est vires , in aqua illic es bacteria.

In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there are bacteria.
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wild_Willie2
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RE: New Scenario - The Bear and the Dragon

Post by wild_Willie2 »

I am happy with the Chinese navy setup, this works but the air war over Russia and even China is getting close to unwinnable.
You first need to knock out the Russian LR radars before you can start killing the Russian fighters but you put so many SAM's around the Russian radars that I cant knock them out without letting them shoot themselves dry first and I cant do that because I get swamped by Russian air as soon as I get close to them :s

I would reduce the number of Russian SAM launchers so that somebody at least has a chance of swamping these systems with one single massive volley. The Russian SA-25's now have 48 ready missiles each, reduce this to eight (2 TEL's) just like most of the Chinese systems to make this playing field more or less equal. Also the 130 mile range Kilter ARM missiles give the Russians a huge advantage, change them for kryptons to give my SAM's at least some chance of surviving

Sinking the Russian Navy is relatively simple in this mission, but achieving air superiority with the current forces is VERY difficult, verging on impossible without luring the Russian air away from their SAM's and in range of your own SAM's and even then these get hit most of the time..



In vinum illic est sapientia , in matera illic est vires , in aqua illic es bacteria.

In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there are bacteria.
U6443
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RE: New Scenario - The Bear and the Dragon

Post by U6443 »


How do you protect harbin against mass of SS-26? They are flying to fast for the HQ-9A. So untill now i manged to survive but now i have nothing against the SS-26.....
They killed half of Harbin air base with my rest of J-10....
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wild_Willie2
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RE: New Scenario - The Bear and the Dragon

Post by wild_Willie2 »

My HQ-9a shot down about 90% of the SS-26 missiles (I just re-tested this) but if you have planes on the ground, you will loose some to this attack...
The trick is to detect the missiles early enough to go through the OODA loop on time. For this you either need to have an A-50 airborne or have the HQ-9a radar radiating when they come in....

Also, have everything airborne so there is less to destroy on the ground.

This scenario has the potential to be one of the best, but it still has some balancing issues (although the SS-26 attack is not a big issue to me)....

In vinum illic est sapientia , in matera illic est vires , in aqua illic es bacteria.

In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there are bacteria.
U6443
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RE: New Scenario - The Bear and the Dragon

Post by U6443 »

The problem is that i moved the HQ-9a (didn't you say to move [:-])

So my HQ-9a is also too far away and missed this missiles... DAM[:D]
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wild_Willie2
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RE: New Scenario - The Bear and the Dragon

Post by wild_Willie2 »

In this current build, moving the SAM batteries east is more or less suicide as they get nailed real soon by uber 130 mile range Kilter ARM missiles...
I now game the system by turning on a radar for a few seconds to get a quick situation picture and then turn them of and run like hell at full ground speed to avoid kilter strikes. IRL setting up and breaking down a HQ-9a site would take at least 15-30 minutes so this is gamely as hell, but its either do this or loose them...

W.
In vinum illic est sapientia , in matera illic est vires , in aqua illic es bacteria.

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Dysta
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RE: New Scenario - The Bear and the Dragon

Post by Dysta »

Will it possible to suddenly involved with South Korean/Japanese fleets hurdling Chinese fleet when they are passing the channel? I want to add more fog-of-war situation when player must be carefully determine what target they are looking for before trying to 'outflank hostile ships' but ended up they are just neutral observers.
DismalPseudoscience
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RE: New Scenario - The Bear and the Dragon

Post by DismalPseudoscience »

Thank you all for continuing to play and test - I hope it has been fun as well as challenging, and not just an exercise in frustration.

I will definitely implement a couple more changes - like no fly zones for the Russians and balancing the ammo supplies. I will probably also reduce the number of Russian SAMs slightly, and I might replace Chinese SAM launchers with ones with more TELs and ready missiles. I think I actually like the Kilters, though. I really want to get the balance on this one right.

I'll be traveling a bit the rest of this week but will hopefully have a new version up within 24 hours or so.
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