OT-The War of 1812 was a decisive win for the US?
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OT-The War of 1812 was a decisive win for the US?
Talk among yourselves....
I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.
Sigismund of Luxemburg
Sigismund of Luxemburg
- Revthought
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RE: OT-The War of 1812 was a decisive win for the US?
No. A decisive win would have resulted in the integration of Canada. Question answered.
Playing at war is a far better vocation than making people fight in them.
RE: OT-The War of 1812 was a decisive win for the US?
It would have been a decisive win if those folks across the pond would speak American english instead of the weird brit english after the war [:D]
- Canoerebel
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RE: OT-The War of 1812 was a decisive win for the US?
Yeah, I've always seen it as standoff, but New Orelans put a really nice bow on the package after the birthday had already passed. The fact that the US emerged standing on its feet and more unified and focused was a decisive development but not necessarily reflective of how it did on the battefield.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
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RE: OT-The War of 1812 was a decisive win for the US?
From my point of view essentially somebody tried to move the border
and it is still in the same place. We send our kids South at an early
age to scare the crazy out of them before they start getting goofy ideas.
Many families have their origins in the South and came North so they could
get a day's work done and not have to worry about phenomena like Trump or
Manifest Destiny and Exceptionalism. I've lived on both sides of the line
and it essentially marks the zone where one kind of democracy morphs into
another. The War itself was quite divisive at the time since what seemed
to be the majority did not want it, particularly New England, the Canadas
(Upper and Lower) and the government of the UK.
and it is still in the same place. We send our kids South at an early
age to scare the crazy out of them before they start getting goofy ideas.
Many families have their origins in the South and came North so they could
get a day's work done and not have to worry about phenomena like Trump or
Manifest Destiny and Exceptionalism. I've lived on both sides of the line
and it essentially marks the zone where one kind of democracy morphs into
another. The War itself was quite divisive at the time since what seemed
to be the majority did not want it, particularly New England, the Canadas
(Upper and Lower) and the government of the UK.
"Patriotism: Your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." - George Bernard Shaw
RE: OT-The War of 1812 was a decisive win for the US?
On the one hand, The War of 1812, can easily be seen as a draw...
The Canadians take pride in successfully defending Canada from Invasion.
The Americans take pride in abolishing British influence on America's western frontier.
The British take pride in teaching an upstart nation that the Royal Navy could successfully blockade most of the American coastline, ruining trade - and the Americans were powerless to stop them.
And of course the Americans take pride in their little navy winning the vast majority of single ship actions fought over the three years of the war...the ONLY nation to build up a winning record over the Royal Navy in the entire epic of the Napoleonic Wars... that really was psychologically a coup - and the British press didn't like it either, at that time (even though the sum total of Britain's losses were insignificant in military terms).
So no-one won a decisive victory, everyone could point to something to take pride in...
but the REAL significant outcome of the war - was that the CAUSE of the war - impressment of sailors from American ships by the Royal Navy, even though not even mentioned in the peace treaty - was ended once and for all.
But on balance, who really benefited from the war? Mostly the USA.
America's frontiers were safe to expand coast to coast - and become the giant nation it did become.
America's navy won the respect of the world, this allowed it's merchant marine to grow into the dominating economic force of the 19th century, which vastly helped the USA become the world's #1 Industrial Giant by the end of the 19th century... and the foundation for all that can be seen being secured in the War of 1812.
B
The Canadians take pride in successfully defending Canada from Invasion.
The Americans take pride in abolishing British influence on America's western frontier.
The British take pride in teaching an upstart nation that the Royal Navy could successfully blockade most of the American coastline, ruining trade - and the Americans were powerless to stop them.
And of course the Americans take pride in their little navy winning the vast majority of single ship actions fought over the three years of the war...the ONLY nation to build up a winning record over the Royal Navy in the entire epic of the Napoleonic Wars... that really was psychologically a coup - and the British press didn't like it either, at that time (even though the sum total of Britain's losses were insignificant in military terms).
So no-one won a decisive victory, everyone could point to something to take pride in...
but the REAL significant outcome of the war - was that the CAUSE of the war - impressment of sailors from American ships by the Royal Navy, even though not even mentioned in the peace treaty - was ended once and for all.
But on balance, who really benefited from the war? Mostly the USA.
America's frontiers were safe to expand coast to coast - and become the giant nation it did become.
America's navy won the respect of the world, this allowed it's merchant marine to grow into the dominating economic force of the 19th century, which vastly helped the USA become the world's #1 Industrial Giant by the end of the 19th century... and the foundation for all that can be seen being secured in the War of 1812.
B
RE: OT-The War of 1812 was a decisive win for the US?
How and why would a discussion of the War of 1812 show up on a Pacific wargame forum?
Because:
A. Sea power played a fundamental role in the war?
B. Someone wants to sling mud at Andrew Jackson?
C. Someone on the Pacific Rim is dreaming about an invasion of Canada?
D. This is a sneaky Japanese plot to drive a wedge between Americans and their British and Canadian brothers in arms?
"A man's got to know his limitations" -Dirty Harry
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RE: OT-The War of 1812 was a decisive win for the US?
Sounds like everybody benefited except those who had to put
up with heavily armed tourists roaming on their property.
Hey, wait a minute.....
up with heavily armed tourists roaming on their property.
Hey, wait a minute.....
"Patriotism: Your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." - George Bernard Shaw
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RE: OT-The War of 1812 was a decisive win for the US?
A Draw, as simple as that. The real losers were the native indian tribes. For Canadians it basically manifested what they are; in fact it shaped Canada.
As for a real good unbiasaed documentary, see - http://www.pbs.org/show/war-1812/
Klink, Oberst
As for a real good unbiasaed documentary, see - http://www.pbs.org/show/war-1812/
Klink, Oberst
RE: OT-The War of 1812 was a decisive win for the US?
Well I wish to avoid coming across as "too political" to "blindly patriotic"....
From a Canadian / Canadien point of view I think you need to examine the outcomes.
The United States of America ended up with Budweiser, Miller and Coors Light as their favorite beers.
(now supplemented by many fine craft beers).
Canada on the other hand ended up with Labatt Blue, Molsons Canadian, and a host of Ales such as Cinquannte (50), Export and O'Keeffe Ale
(now supplemented by many fine craft beers).
Therefore its obviously a decisive Canadian victory.
[:D]
The other stuff frankly didn't matter in the long run...
My Toronto Blue Jays (baseball) all born in the USA ?
Your Nashville Predators (hockey) all born in Canada ?
Bahh...
[8D]
From a Canadian / Canadien point of view I think you need to examine the outcomes.
The United States of America ended up with Budweiser, Miller and Coors Light as their favorite beers.
(now supplemented by many fine craft beers).
Canada on the other hand ended up with Labatt Blue, Molsons Canadian, and a host of Ales such as Cinquannte (50), Export and O'Keeffe Ale
(now supplemented by many fine craft beers).
Therefore its obviously a decisive Canadian victory.
[:D]
The other stuff frankly didn't matter in the long run...
My Toronto Blue Jays (baseball) all born in the USA ?
Your Nashville Predators (hockey) all born in Canada ?
Bahh...
[8D]
A People that values its privileges above it's principles will soon loose both. Dwight D Eisenhower.
RE: OT-The War of 1812 was a decisive win for the US?
The real looser of course was the British Empire and the "home island".
They continue to drink their inferior beer "near room temperature" which is wholly incomprehensible to North Americans.
They continue to drink their inferior beer "near room temperature" which is wholly incomprehensible to North Americans.
A People that values its privileges above it's principles will soon loose both. Dwight D Eisenhower.
- Bullwinkle58
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RE: OT-The War of 1812 was a decisive win for the US?
ORIGINAL: Revthought
No. A decisive win would have resulted in the integration of Canada. Question answered.
That was only one objective of the war.
The pressing of American seamen by the RN stopped. Objective +1.
The Moose
RE: OT-The War of 1812 was a decisive win for the US?
ORIGINAL: Big B
On the one hand, The War of 1812, can easily be seen as a draw...
The Canadians take pride in successfully defending Canada from Invasion.
The Americans take pride in abolishing British influence on America's western frontier.
The British take pride in teaching an upstart nation that the Royal Navy could successfully blockade most of the American coastline, ruining trade - and the Americans were powerless to stop them.
And of course the Americans take pride in their little navy winning the vast majority of single ship actions fought over the three years of the war...the ONLY nation to build up a winning record over the Royal Navy in the entire epic of the Napoleonic Wars... that really was psychologically a coup - and the British press didn't like it either, at that time (even though the sum total of Britain's losses were insignificant in military terms).
So no-one won a decisive victory, everyone could point to something to take pride in...
but the REAL significant outcome of the war - was that the CAUSE of the war - impressment of sailors from American ships by the Royal Navy, even though not even mentioned in the peace treaty - was ended once and for all.
But on balance, who really benefited from the war? Mostly the USA.
America's frontiers were safe to expand coast to coast - and become the giant nation it did become.
America's navy won the respect of the world, this allowed it's merchant marine to grow into the dominating economic force of the 19th century, which vastly helped the USA become the world's #1 Industrial Giant by the end of the 19th century... and the foundation for all that can be seen being secured in the War of 1812.
B
The war also helped cement Canada together. The French citizens of Quebec were hoping that Napoleon would beat the English and come to renew the French rule of that area. But when the US invaded they saw that assimilation in the "melting pot" of the US was a greater danger and they joined with the British in defending their borders. They won some concessions from the British for their support - like keeping their language. Even after the war English Canada was careful in dealing with Quebec because they knew they needed them onside - as we do today.
The war also made Eastern Canada realize they had to expand ties to the West if they wanted to keep it. Road building and exploration missions ensued. Fur trading companies built a series of forts with the blessing and support of the Crown. Somehow it all stuck together through Finian raids and internal squabbles long enough for an east-west railroad to complete the tie-in.
Every war changes the course of development in the affected areas!
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
RE: OT-The War of 1812 was a decisive win for the US?
ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink
A Draw, as simple as that. The real losers were the native indian tribes....
This exactly. USA, UK, Canada can all claim to have won but it was a disaster for the native Americans.
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RE: OT-The War of 1812 was a decisive win for the US?
ORIGINAL: Macclan5
The real looser of course was the British Empire and the "home island".
They continue to drink their inferior beer "near room temperature" which is wholly incomprehensible to North Americans.
As I Brit I've kept out of this but you sir have gone too far. How dare you , take it back.[:-]
RE: OT-The War of 1812 was a decisive win for the US?
ORIGINAL: Macclan5
The real looser of course was the British Empire and the "home island".
They continue to drink their inferior beer "near room temperature" which is wholly incomprehensible to North Americans.
Just because it is called "beer" does not mean it is beer....
[:)]
RE: OT-The War of 1812 was a decisive win for the US?
warspite1ORIGINAL: Pilsator
ORIGINAL: Macclan5
The real looser of course was the British Empire and the "home island".
They continue to drink their inferior beer "near room temperature" which is wholly incomprehensible to North Americans.
Just because it is called "beer" does not mean it is beer....
[:)]
Yes, Budweiser is the proof of that.... [;)]
Now Maitland, now's your time!
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
RE: OT-The War of 1812 was a decisive win for the US?
ORIGINAL: warspite1
Yes, Budweiser is the proof of that.... [;)]
Budweiser , cool czech beer with a wonderfull taste.
Or do you mean the Beer which is now called "America"? That is like sex on the beach...
RE: OT-The War of 1812 was a decisive win for the US?
warspite1ORIGINAL: Pilsator
ORIGINAL: warspite1
Yes, Budweiser is the proof of that.... [;)]
Budweiser , cool czech beer with a wonderfull taste.
Or do you mean the Beer which is now called "America"? That is like sex on the beach...
I mean Budweiser not Budvar.....
Now Maitland, now's your time!
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
RE: OT-The War of 1812 was a decisive win for the US?
How come every citizen of the USA comes over here and goes "Wow! Your beer is ace" then*
*based on unsubstantiated surveys and a severe bias for British beer
*based on unsubstantiated surveys and a severe bias for British beer