Call to try long duration scenarios

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mikmykWS
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Call to try long duration scenarios

Post by mikmykWS »

Hi

We've added a bunch of things now that should in theory allow for some pretty long duration scenarios and would like to know everybody's experience with this and what kinds of things we can add to improve this. Please let us know. I know I'll be working with it to see how it does.

Thanks!

Mike

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Gizzmoe
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RE: Call to try long duration scenarios

Post by Gizzmoe »

I guess everyone has a different view on what "long duration" means. A month? A year? Ten years? Things like automated maintenance checks could be useful for longer scens, or even automated mid-life platform upgrades for scens that run over several years.

But is it really useful that the devs implement stuff that IMO is irrelevant for 99% of all scens? And how feasible is it anyway to play a scen that has many units and spans over even just a month? It would take ages to play through. What would be universally useful though for all kinds of scens, and especially longer scens, is random and user-defined (repairable) breakdowns for platforms and sensors.
skjold89
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RE: Call to try long duration scenarios

Post by skjold89 »

(Warning: i have only very basic, non professional understanding of Lua so i wouldn't be suprised if there is some errors in this post.)

I have thought about making longer scenarios but the main things that made it unviable for me was the inability to add magazines to the scenario mid mission via lua, for example that mid mission a cargo airplane or helicopter would arrive at an airbase with munitions to keep the fight going. Great use for helicopters and cargo aircraft by the way, which has limited use now.

Maybe something like this, it should also be useful for shorter missions in relation to what Gizzmoe said.

ScenEdit_AddMagazine('SideNameOrId'.'MagazineName'.DBID.Quantity.'UnitID? GroupID?')

There is ofcourse some problems with this, like for example that there isn't to my knowledge any support for "Unit Enters Area" or "Unit Remains In Area" to be about a specific Group or unit such as a harbour or a airfield but ofcourse reference points could also be used.

Edit: the main problem i can think of is that you can have duplicate names of both single units and groups. Im sure the game somewhere defines each group with a unique ID but as far as i know it is not available to the player/mission designer.
mikmykWS
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RE: Call to try long duration scenarios

Post by mikmykWS »

ORIGINAL: Gizzmoe

I guess everyone has a different view on what "long duration" means. A month? A year? Ten years? Things like automated maintenance checks could be useful for longer scens, or even automated mid-life platform upgrades for scens that run over several years.

But is it really useful that the devs implement stuff that IMO is irrelevant for 99% of all scens? And how feasible is it anyway to play a scen that has many units and spans over even just a month? It would take ages to play through. What would be universally useful though for all kinds of scens, and especially longer scens, is random and user-defined (repairable) breakdowns for platforms and sensors.

I'm not interested in what can't be done but what can. Experimenting and trying is how we learn.

That being said I need folks who are actually building stuff to chime in on this.

Mike
mikmykWS
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RE: Call to try long duration scenarios

Post by mikmykWS »

ORIGINAL: Skjold

(Warning: i have only very basic, non professional understanding of Lua so i wouldn't be suprised if there is some errors in this post.)

I have thought about making longer scenarios but the main things that made it unviable for me was the inability to add magazines to the scenario mid mission via lua, for example that mid mission a cargo airplane or helicopter would arrive at an airbase with munitions to keep the fight going. Great use for helicopters and cargo aircraft by the way, which has limited use now.

Maybe something like this, it should also be useful for shorter missions in relation to what Gizzmoe said.

ScenEdit_AddMagazine('SideNameOrId'.'MagazineName'.DBID.Quantity.'UnitID? GroupID?')

There is ofcourse some problems with this, like for example that there isn't to my knowledge any support for "Unit Enters Area" or "Unit Remains In Area" to be about a specific Group or unit such as a harbour or a airfield but ofcourse reference points could also be used.

Edit: the main problem i can think of is that you can have duplicate names of both single units and groups. Im sure the game somewhere defines each group with a unique ID but as far as i know it is not available to the player/mission designer.

Good point. You could use an import to spawn in a mag which you can group with an existing one. Likewise might be able to do something as you suggest, saw some code recently that might make it work now but need to see if it works.

Using our existing stuff how long do you think a current scenario could go?

Mike
skjold89
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RE: Call to try long duration scenarios

Post by skjold89 »

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

Good point. You could use an import to spawn in a mag which you can group with an existing one. Likewise might be able to do something as you suggest, saw some code recently that might make it work now but need to see if it works.

Using our existing stuff how long do you think a current scenario could go?

Mike

It all depends on the intensity of the mission, a low intensity CAS mission with enemies spawning dynamnically might essentially go on forever (a lá afghanistan) given that that munitions pile is big enough / get resupplied. while a very intense slug fest for aerial supremacy might last for a day (such as a mission im currently in the final stages of making) but for all intents and purposes i don't think most people would play a mission longer then a week or two for an aerial combat and a month or two for a naval one, and that is imo stretching it.
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RE: Call to try long duration scenarios

Post by skjold89 »

double post.
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Gunner98
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RE: Call to try long duration scenarios

Post by Gunner98 »

I could easily think of scenarios lasting a couple weeks. Would have to get better at Lua. Some thoughts:
-Don't know if Lua can modify the readiness of AC in the F6 screen, that could handle the issue of cycling AC through maintenance on a random or fixed by the designer. If Lua doesn't do it than you can delete AC for a period and then add them back in.
-the pier facilities add a lot to this concept: Convoy crosses the great blue to resupply a beleaguered airbase with key munitions, reinvigorating the air campaign etc etc
-you could identify a 'play-box' and spawn units in and out near the edge (out for points?) or represent the global scale and have ships spawn in ports a long way from the fight and either rush to the rescue (through sub infested waters) or not get there in time.

One of my upcoming Northern Fury scenarios 'Body Blow' was going to be broken into a few smaller ones. I could try and keep it as one. its only 4 days long but has 4xCVN + 2xCV and a bunch of other stuff. More 'big' than 'long' so doesn't really fit your initial post.

Eventually when I get to Pacific Fury (I know, I'm a sick puppy), there are some long duration scenarios in there.

Perhaps there is room for a trans-Atlantic convoy push. The JFK with a couple VS sqns is on SLOC duty so could run a 6-7 day contested crossing. Let me think on it.

B
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ComDev
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RE: Call to try long duration scenarios

Post by ComDev »

Would be interesting to know what the limitations are, both in RL time and game time.

Say, small scen at high compression running for days, weeks, months, maybe even years in game time.

And small/medium scens running for days or even weeks real time.

Perhaps some of you have spare computers or VMs where you could try this out?

Thanks!
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lowchi
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RE: Call to try long duration scenarios

Post by lowchi »

A few weeks ago, a tried to simulate a submarine deployment from New London to the Persian golf. With stops in Rota and Souda bay for training in the med. Very basic. Duration in game time was three months. Had no issues.

I am not sure if this is what you guys looking for, but I can try to automate this with events and Lua tomorrow. Then run it and see if I can find some issues or even suggestions.
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Gunner98
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RE: Call to try long duration scenarios

Post by Gunner98 »

I'll crank something up quick and run it on my laptop.

One feature that would help and I think is fairly simple is an adjustment to the 'Ferry' mission where an AC goes out loaded, but returns empty (in ferry loadout) then when it cycles it goes out loaded again.

I'll pop it into the feature request list.

Does the Ferry mission work with ships now that piers act as home base? I'll check that out.

B
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lowchi
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RE: Call to try long duration scenarios

Post by lowchi »

Does the Ferry mission work with ships now that piers act as home base? I'll check that out.

Nope, just tried. Will add to feature request.
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AdmiralSteve
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RE: Call to try long duration scenarios

Post by AdmiralSteve »

Yeah, I'd like to see some long duration scenarios. UNREP seems to work well but I'd like to see the ship damage model work over an extended period like 24-48 hours. Lots of ships in naval history that were attacked, repaired and got back into the fight. I think it would be pretty cool to a have a damaged ship be repaired via a AR tender by pulling alongside.
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rvseydlitz
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RE: Call to try long duration scenarios

Post by rvseydlitz »

I have usually preferred longer scenarios, have worked on a couple of them. The primary issue that I had seen was that the AI side did not do refuels, so that eventually smaller vessels became dead in the water.

I had been occupied in real life much so have not messed with any design. I will eagerly check if this is still the case in the new version.

Great work as far as speeding up game play in the new versions, which would have been my #2 issue, but seems amazingly fast now.
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goodwoodrw
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RE: Call to try long duration scenarios

Post by goodwoodrw »

Hey I was just fiddling with the editor on the back of Mike's request of try long duration scenarios.
I setup two reference points, one near Southampton the other near Perth WA. Because ships can't yet be placed in a transit mission I setup a support mission and assigned a ship to it. The AI pathing was incredible! The initially travelled east almost to the French coast then the AI path kicked in. Fanastic, down the west coast of Spain through the Gilbrator Straits across the Med through the Suez out into the Indian ocean and down to Perth. The AI brilliant.
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goodwoodrw
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RE: Call to try long duration scenarios

Post by goodwoodrw »

For what its worth here is the scenario file. I had to find a ship with the suitable endurance.
What we need is to be able to place in a transit mission and I'm not sure how to setup a port refuelling stop on the way.
Attachments
Transit.zip
(5.3 KiB) Downloaded 7 times
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goodwoodrw
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RE: Call to try long duration scenarios

Post by goodwoodrw »

Just put a non Nav zone at the entrance of the Med sadly it totally confused the AI, couldn't find a path


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schweggy
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RE: Call to try long duration scenarios

Post by schweggy »

“Long Duration”

I’d like to see a scenario where the “player” is a CIC type actor.

A possible situation:
The US is confronted by Iran, DPRK, Russia and PLAN in various parts of the globe. The player is prompted to pick one “situation” and work it. What happens in that scenario is not necessarily relevant to any other situation, but perhaps assets are depleted or reassigned. Over a “real time” period of a month or more I’d like to see how players would allocate their resources, within the limits of the game engine of course.

In my opinion this is probably a realistic model of a Commander in Chief’s typical year in office. Spike it with a Hillary or Donald persona and see what happens. I’d guess one could integrate this via the campaign model and some snazzy scripting. Just a thought.

Examples: (Pick a side)

February 2017: New US President is elected and is confronted with aggressive China in SCS.
- Trump: “give ‘em hell”
o Massive US Navy presence
o Accelerated F-35 integration
o Ramped up ICBM posture
- HRC: let’s see what happens
o Minimal USN presence in SCS
o LCS as front line assets
o Minimal air assets

June 2018: Iran prepares nuke ICBM test
- Trump: Israel’s on their own, we can’t protect everyone
o Surgical strikes
o No overt defense of Israel
- HRC: We stand with Israel
o Large scale air campaign
o Massive redeployment of USAF to IAD bases

October 2018: North Korea steps it up (with cameo by PLAN)
- Trump: nuke the bastard, now.
- HRC: nuke the bastard, soon.

The possibilities are endless….
- schweggy -

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CCIP-subsim
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RE: Call to try long duration scenarios

Post by CCIP-subsim »

I'll hopefully be able to hop back in and try something - I've been away from CMANO for the past couple of months, but this gives me an excuse to finish up that dynamic Vietnam scenario I had, and hopefully see what can be done from there! I think there is definitely some great possibilities for longer-term scenarios with a bit more strategy/supply issues involved, but I think what will be really important is for scenario designers to also have discipline and a good sense of the scope of their scenarios. There often seems to be this fixation on politics and grand strategy, when Command is still very much an operational/tactical game and it's at that level that scenarios need to be really thought through.

What I'm personally interested in trying is creating long-term self-generating scenarios - sort of like little dynamic campaigns, where you and the AI get a steady stream of objectives and supplies generated continuously, day by day or phase by phase, and which run for let's say a few weeks and at the end you get a final score. It could be a great way of making low-intensity operations in large theaters very interesting.
mikmykWS
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RE: Call to try long duration scenarios

Post by mikmykWS »

ORIGINAL: CCIPsubsim

I'll hopefully be able to hop back in and try something - I've been away from CMANO for the past couple of months, but this gives me an excuse to finish up that dynamic Vietnam scenario I had, and hopefully see what can be done from there! I think there is definitely some great possibilities for longer-term scenarios with a bit more strategy/supply issues involved, but I think what will be really important is for scenario designers to also have discipline and a good sense of the scope of their scenarios. There often seems to be this fixation on politics and grand strategy, when Command is still very much an operational/tactical game and it's at that level that scenarios need to be really thought through.

What I'm personally interested in trying is creating long-term self-generating scenarios - sort of like little dynamic campaigns, where you and the AI get a steady stream of objectives and supplies generated continuously, day by day or phase by phase, and which run for let's say a few weeks and at the end you get a final score. It could be a great way of making low-intensity operations in large theaters very interesting.

lua makes this possible. You can do cause and effect. Let us know how it goes.

Big picture is D does have some plans for upper level AI stuff but we're still working on how it will work [:)]

Mike
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