Torpedoes hit at Pearl Harbour

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patrickl
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Torpedoes hit at Pearl Harbour

Post by patrickl »

Read that 40 Kates were launched with torpedoes on 7 Dec 41. Yet only 17 hit targets. So 23 pilots chicken out? Don't think they were all shot down
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RE: Torpedoes hit at Pearl Harbour

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: patrickl

Read that 40 Kates were launched with torpedoes on 7 Dec 41. Yet only 17 hit targets. So 23 pilots chicken out? Don't think they were all shot down
warspite1

Why do you say chickening out is the obvious reason for not hitting the target? If those numbers are true can there not be torpedo malfunction, a mistake in the drop height causing the torpedo to miss or other explanation? Seems a bit harsh to assume those that failed to hit were cowards.
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RE: Torpedoes hit at Pearl Harbour

Post by patrickl »

I did not mean to be harsh. Just found out 5 Kates were shot over Pearl Harbour with 15 KIA. Got this from

http://www.navweaps.com/index_oob/OOB_W ... Harbor.htm

So the Japanese torpedoes were not that good: there were misses and duds.
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RE: Torpedoes hit at Pearl Harbour

Post by warspite1 »

Others no doubt on the forum will be able to give additional info on this, but my guess would be that when these torpedoes hit the water they need to be dropped from a certain height (angle?) to ensure they run as intended. I believe they were fitted with wooden fins - and if these broke on landing then the torpedoes may not run true.

In addition of course, even if the torpedoes were fine, in the heat of battle maybe some pilots got their approach wrong.

From everything I have read, just about the last word I would associate with the Japanese in WWII is coward. Obedient to the point of suicidal stupidity yes, but coward no.

Just my 2 cents.
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RE: Torpedoes hit at Pearl Harbour

Post by btd64 »

Pearl Harbor was shallow. The adjustments made to the torpedoes was designed to combat the depth problem. Also 17 hits is a very good hit percentage considering the heat of battle. Around 42%. Damb good....GP
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RE: Torpedoes hit at Pearl Harbour

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ORIGINAL: General Patton

Pearl Harbor was shallow. The adjustments made to the torpedoes was designed to combat the depth problem. Also 17 hits is a very good hit percentage considering the heat of battle. Around 42%. Damb good....GP
+1

One of the best hit rates of the war ... I think "highly skilled" would be better descriptions of the pilots involved ...
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RE: Torpedoes hit at Pearl Harbour

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: General Patton

Pearl Harbor was shallow. The adjustments made to the torpedoes was designed to combat the depth problem. Also 17 hits is a very good hit percentage considering the heat of battle. Around 42%. Damb good....GP
+1

One of the best hit rates of the war ... I think "highly skilled" would be better descriptions of the pilots involved ...
warspite1

Yes for the avoidance of doubt the "obedient to the point of suicidal stupidity" was thinking more about the actions like those on Guadalcanal. In no way could the original airmen of the Kido Butai be classed as anything other than highly skilled - unless to add, well trained and highly motivated.

Edit: can't spell add [8|]
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RE: Torpedoes hit at Pearl Harbour

Post by crsutton »

It was attacking through the eye of the needle. Some simply were dropped wrong and hit the mud bottom. Either buried or throwing off the path. 17 hits in a confined space was just a touch beyond spectacular.
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RE: Torpedoes hit at Pearl Harbour

Post by KenchiSulla »

Personally never dropped a non guided torpedo in shallow waters in a combat situation... Actually, I've never been in combat...

When looking at the situation from the outside, using what I know of the matter at hand.. 17 out of 40 seems pretty damn good...
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RE: Torpedoes hit at Pearl Harbour

Post by Zorch »

They had to fly very low and slow to avoid the torps bottoming out, even with the fins...they were sitting ducks for AA.
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RE: Torpedoes hit at Pearl Harbour

Post by IdahoNYer »

If you ever want to really fully appreciate just how good the IJN Kate pilots were at Pearl, go to Ford Island and stand along what used to be battleship row. Looking out across the harbor, its simply an amazing sight to see how little room there is for the Kates to come in and line up on their targets.

Truly an impressive accomplishment!
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RE: Torpedoes hit at Pearl Harbour

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My wife and I are planning a trip to Hawaii for our 25th anniversary next year. Pearl is on the bucket list....GP
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RE: Torpedoes hit at Pearl Harbour

Post by Buckrock »

According to Zimm's "Attack on Pearl Harbor",

40 Kates (w/torps) attacked the ships but
4 were shot down before they could drop and
1 was forced to jettison while avoiding a collision with another Kate.

Of 35 torpedoes dropped, 19 hits were gained (15 on BBs, 2 on the target ship Utah and 2 on cruisers).
Several of the misses included torpedoes that buried themselves in the mud near USS Helena.
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RE: Torpedoes hit at Pearl Harbour

Post by wdolson »

Torpedoes are also a high tech weapon (for the era) and they had to be dropped from a moving aircraft into the water. A drop on a stationary target in open ocean with a deep bottom would have misses due to torpedo malfunctions. They can veer off course, fail to explode, have a motor failure and probably some other things I haven't thought of. Dropping in such a shallow harbor, some were bound to bury themselves in the mud.

At Taranto, Italy the British made an attack in 1940 that inspired the Pearl Harbor attack. The first wave had 6 torpedo carrying aircraft and the second wave had 5. The first wave achieved 3 hits and the second wave 2. 5/11 = 45.4%. The Pearl Harbor Attack was 19/40=47.5%. Essentially the same hit percentage.

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RE: Torpedoes hit at Pearl Harbour

Post by BBfanboy »

Good analysis Bill, but add in that the British attacked at night and I give them the honors for best torpedo attack pilots.[&o]
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RE: Torpedoes hit at Pearl Harbour

Post by geofflambert »

I don't know how it applies to the numbers quoted here, but somewhere around half of the Kates weren't carrying torpedoes at all. By some accounts they were dropping 14" AP shells or 16" AP shells.

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RE: Torpedoes hit at Pearl Harbour

Post by rustysi »

16" AP shells.

Yup, to target the inboard ships.
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RE: Torpedoes hit at Pearl Harbour

Post by wdolson »

Both at Taranto and Pearl Harbor around half the torpedo bombers carried bombs. At Pearl the air crews on the Zuikaku and Shokaku were much greener than the other carrier's crews. The torpedoes were put on the Kates with the most experienced crews. One Kates with the large caliber shells sank the Arizona, but the results for the bomb carrying Kates was very poor.

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RE: Torpedoes hit at Pearl Harbour

Post by spence »

Both at Taranto and Pearl Harbor around half the torpedo bombers carried bombs. At Pearl the air crews on the Zuikaku and Shokaku were much greener than the other carrier's crews. The torpedoes were put on the Kates with the most experienced crews. One Kates with the large caliber shells sank the Arizona, but the results for the bomb carrying Kates was very poor.

As Zimm describes it in his operational analysis of the attack on PH the torpedo attacks were poorly coordinated because of Fuchida's two flare signals (surprise or no surprise) which confused pilots and caused different groups to attack simultaneously (thus the torpedo jettisoned - fairly lucky that it was only one). In addition the torpedo pilots were expected to conduct attacks on different ships using the same approach route to the drop point. Thus of the 15 hits on BBs 6-7 were on West Virginia and 5 were on Oklahoma. Shots on the other BBs were much more difficult than on those two. As for the level bombers attacking ships, the hit percentage with 800 kg bombs was well within the expected range/hoped for range but the bombs themselves were either defective or passed all the way through poorly armored targets without exploding (60% or so). Thus except for the one hit on the Arizona the results of the bomb hits by the level bombers was extremely poor with the BBs hit ready for action within a few weeks or less.

(IIRC the Zuikaku's and Shokaku's B5Ns were assigned to attacking airfields rather than ships).
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RE: Torpedoes hit at Pearl Harbour

Post by dr.hal »

On a final note it should be clear that there is no "exact" scientifically based results when it comes to the ordnance performance at Pearl. There are clearly some documented misses, but remember that there might have been some torpedo(es) from midget subs, and the number of "hits" is also not perfectly clear as there are some indicators of "double" hits, i.e. hits in the same place. So the "true" numbers may never really be known. However the results are clear, there were no "cowards" in the torpedo flight crews (although I'm sure there were some very scared young people there!) and that they achieved an astonishing result of an almost 50% hit rate (+/-). Zimm's book is the best I've read on this subject, but it too doesn't really know the full extent of what happened.
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