Surprise selection in sub combat

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ashkpa
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Surprise selection in sub combat

Post by ashkpa »

In the attached file, the JP have initiated combat and achieved 8 surprise pts versus the US (both sides committed their lone subs). The JP do not use surprise except to increase their column twice and then to select target. (presses are: ok, ok, yes to submarine combat, ok, ok, increase combat column twice - leaving 4 surprise pts -, choose select target). At this point the first combat selection screen appears and the US submarine is not available for selection. Per the rules (and rules as coded, p. 60 in the booklet) "Losses inflicted by the SUB side can only be taken on convoys (unless someone spends 3 surprise points to inflict them on another target)." I thought this is what I had done by having the JP spend 3 to choose target.

Thoughts? Bug? Known deficiency?

Thanks,

Pat
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Pat
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paulderynck
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RE: Surprise selection in sub combat

Post by paulderynck »

No if you check the rules for sub combat, subs don't fight each other, they fight enemy CPs and their escorts separately if all are present. You can attack enemy subs with your own subs if you choose a surface combat.
Paul
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BrianJH
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RE: Surprise selection in sub combat

Post by BrianJH »

Just to clarify Pauls last post.

You can attack other SCS by choosing targets with surprise points in Submarine Combat, but not enemy subs.



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ashkpa
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RE: Surprise selection in sub combat

Post by ashkpa »

I understand what you both are saying. However, that is not what the rule states. The rule limits the non-sub side to only impacting subs, but there is no limitation stated on who the sub sided can select with surprise. I checked the Rules as Coded book (quoted in my first message), the August '04 Version 7 rules and the FAQ from '09. No where do I see a statement limiting it to SCS. It very well may have been the intent, and makes a some sense - especially for that era.
Pat
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BrianJH
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RE: Surprise selection in sub combat

Post by BrianJH »

ORIGINAL: ashkpa

I understand what you both are saying. However, that is not what the rule states. The rule limits the non-sub side to only impacting subs, but there is no limitation stated on who the sub sided can select with surprise. I checked the Rules as Coded book (quoted in my first message), the August '04 Version 7 rules and the FAQ from '09. No where do I see a statement limiting it to SCS. It very well may have been the intent, and makes a some sense - especially for that era.

I missed it the first time I read the rule too.

The start of the second Paragraph of Rule 11.5.10 says

In a submarine combat, each side’s SUBs (not any other units) will fight the opposing side’s included non-SUB units.

So, selecting targets with surprise points would only allow you to select targets within this constraint.


ACMW
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RE: Surprise selection in sub combat

Post by ACMW »

What happens in the albeit unlikely case that both sides have CONV, SCSs & Subs? Are there 2 SUBvCONV battles?

Cheers

Adrian
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Orm
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RE: Surprise selection in sub combat

Post by Orm »

Yes.

Cut from RAC: 11.5.10 Submarine combat
....
If each side has both SUBs and other targets, there will be 2 separate combats.
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ashkpa
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RE: Surprise selection in sub combat

Post by ashkpa »

Yes, but that doesn't say that if the sub side uses surprise to select a target, that it must select a SCS.
Pat
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ashkpa
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RE: Surprise selection in sub combat

Post by ashkpa »

I see it now. It is the statement above the one you quoted. "...each side's SUBs (not any other units) will fight the opposing side's included non-SUB units."

Sorry for being dense.
Pat
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RE: Surprise selection in sub combat

Post by ACMW »

Thanks Orm. I had read this some time in the past, without really thinking about it. But how does this actually work? Presumably there is only one surprise roll per player and those surprise points are then distributed across the 2 combats. So, if I have 7 surprise points, I could use 4 to avoid the combat of his subs v my convs and 2 to reduce his ASW or increase my SUB or 3 to choose a target. Or, perhaps have 3 shifts distributed between increasing my SUB or my ASW or decreasing his SUB or ASW.

Guess this is rather a rare occurrence though.
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RE: Surprise selection in sub combat

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: ACMW

Thanks Orm. I had read this some time in the past, without really thinking about it. But how does this actually work? Presumably there is only one surprise roll per player and those surprise points are then distributed across the 2 combats. So, if I have 7 surprise points, I could use 4 to avoid the combat of his subs v my convs and 2 to reduce his ASW or increase my SUB or 3 to choose a target. Or, perhaps have 3 shifts distributed between increasing my SUB or my ASW or decreasing his SUB or ASW.

Guess this is rather a rare occurrence though.
Yes, it's rare. But there is code to handle it.
Steve

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