The Gamiest Game in Town - EL (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)

[el lobo]

PRODUCTION – SHIPS Aug 27, 1942 Turn 264

Since very early in the game I have had lots of ships pulling resources off of Hokkaido, about ninety-four including some PBs. Resources are now below 200k so I have cut the number down to about thirty-four. I will adjust this to match production.

This frees-up a lot of ships and it will allow me to fine-tune my supply and troop convoys and do some other stuff. They are an eclectic mix of classes as I grabbed what was available at the time.

Most of the ports that move both resources and oil have Yusen Ns and Kyushus but this will give me a couple more to replace cargo ships without liquid capacity in places such a Fusan and Balikpapan.

I really like AKEs and I have converted some Limas but now I will convert some more.

I am going to convert some of the slower, less endurance PBs to AMcs.

I have previously converted six Std-Cs to tankers and now will convert six more. I have a lot of fuel building in Palembang, 1.2M, and I need these smaller tankers to help move it out. I have three large tankers shipping fuel out of Oosthaven but they can not keep up with production. I am also going to put all of the convoys at Pbang on Human Control. I check these ports every day anyway and I think I can schedule the convoys better than the AI.

Hopefully having less ships running will save me a little fuel also.

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: el lobo
I have previously converted six Std-Cs to tankers and now will convert six more. I have a lot of fuel building in Palembang, 1.2M, and I need these smaller tankers to help move it out. I have three large tankers shipping fuel out of Oosthaven but they can not keep up with production. I am also going to put all of the convoys at Pbang on Human Control. I check these ports every day anyway and I think I can schedule the convoys better than the AI.

I have 2 CS convoys to Singers, 8 Std-C each, one for fuel one for oil, meeting all my needs for draining Palembang with port 4. Have 200 refineries damaged and not repaired so it's about 1/2 oil/fuel production counting Djambi. Large tankers to HI go from Singers.
No need for human convoys. Just flood the area with ASW because it's the obvious target for subs

[el lobo]

ORIGINAL: GetAssista
I have 2 CS convoys to Singers, 8 Std-C each, one for fuel one for oil, meeting all my needs for draining Palembang with port 4. Have 200 refineries damaged and not repaired so it's about 1/2 oil/fuel production counting Djambi. Large tankers to HI go from Singers.

Thanks GA, that is exactly what I want to do. I will convert four more.

No need for human convoys. Just flood the area with ASW because it's the obvious target for subs

Not for ASW yet, touch wood, but every so often I get four or five TFs in there all at once and I think it might be a little inefficient. I will play Harbor Master for a couple of months until things get sorted.

[el lobo]

CEYLON Aug 31, 1942 Turn 268

I DA Colombo next turn.

[el lobo]

PRODUCTION – AIR, AIR AND ENGINE R&D Aug 31, 1942 Turn 268

When I first started this game I thought I would never use all of those R&D locations. Now I wish I had a couple more.

I wish I knew more about the repair rates of R&D Factories. I know that they start repairing slow and the closer they get to the original build date the faster they repair. It looks like it is some sort of exponential curve, not that it matters. What does matter is that not much happens a year-and-a-half to two years out.

So, I changed the three location that I had for the Ki-115a Tsurugi to the Ki-84a Frank giving me twelve locations R&Ding the Frank. Once the 84a goes into production, I will divide these twelve between 84a production, the 84r R&D, Sam R&D (have three now), and back to the Tsurugi R&D. I really considered changing the three to the Ki-84b Frank but the 84r won out.

There are two a/c models that I wish I had not bothered R&Ding, bombers, but live and learn. They are fairly close in, time-wise, so I will be able to use the locations to R&D some of my later fighters anyway.

I added another location to R&D the Ha-45 (now 7) starting with five Factories

Here is what accelerated this month.

Tojo IIc …....... 9/43
Tony 100-I ..... 2/45
Helen IIb …..... 8/43
Oscar -43IV .... 2/45

Ha-45 …......... 4/43
Ha-44 …......... 3/43

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: el lobo


When I first started this game I thought I would never use all of those R&D locations. Now I wish I had a couple more.

We all do.

ORIGINAL: el lobo
There are two a/c models that I wish I had not bothered R&Ding, bombers, but live and learn.

I tend to RnD fighters ... and then maybe a few others models, but not much. First, once you get the Helen with armor which even without Rnd you get fairly early, there isn't much more to get.
Again, on the Val/Kate side same thing. Once you get the Jill/Judy, even the early models, after that it isn't all that big a difference.

Fighters though have a big impact. Sam compared to Zero is just huge, and almost every IJN group can upgrade to the Sam unlike the George. Oscar/Tojo/Frank difference isn't as bad as the IJN side, but still ...
Frank is the best choice if you have it. So, anyway, I tend to really focus my RnD on fighters as they more than the other models have more influence for me.

[Lowpe]

Good job on the Franks. Your decision on splitting the r&d and build 50-50 should await till you are closer having the plane and really depends upon the situation you will find your self in then.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Fighters though have a big impact. Sam compared to Zero is just huge, and almost every IJN group can upgrade to the Sam unlike the George. Oscar/Tojo/Frank difference isn't as bad as the IJN side, but still ...
Frank is the best choice if you have it. So, anyway, I tend to really focus my RnD on fighters as they more than the other models have more influence for me.

Ok, deep breath here and perhaps Pax missed it by omission.[:D] In a pbem you have to r&d Night fighters. Irving S (must); Nick D (must); Dinah (must - but because it allows a lot of squadrons to convert to NF -- the plane really under performs).

Frances is a great NF but slow; Myrt is better than it looks on paper. Denko kind of stinks, and none of the device on Randy activate in time. Zero NF can resize their groups if you are so inclined (I am not). Judy I have no experience with. Peggy is probably the equivalent of Nick but a little faster.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Fighters though have a big impact. Sam compared to Zero is just huge, and almost every IJN group can upgrade to the Sam unlike the George. Oscar/Tojo/Frank difference isn't as bad as the IJN side, but still ...
Frank is the best choice if you have it. So, anyway, I tend to really focus my RnD on fighters as they more than the other models have more influence for me.

Ok, deep breath here and perhaps Pax missed it by omission.[:D] In a pbem you have to r&d Night fighters. Irving S (must); Nick D (must); Dinah (must - but because it allows a lot of squadrons to convert to NF -- the plane really under performs).

Frances is a great NF but slow; Myrt is better than it looks on paper. Denko kind of stinks, and none of the device on Randy activate in time. Zero NF can resize their groups if you are so inclined (I am not). Judy I have no experience with. Peggy is probably the equivalent of Nick but a little faster.

I do, some, but not that much. I build them as they arrive.

AI loves night bombing. From what I see in AAR's, far more than most players. And there are no HR's on it. So, I will see 4E's at 2000 ft en mass.

I just don't find that much overall difference between fighters and NF's until Randy, and as you say it arrives so late unless you dedicate a lot of resource to it.
What I mean by little difference is that Tojo C's/George on night suffer fewer losses than comparable NF's as they have armor. Sure, they don't damage as many bombers, but they seem to disrupt about the same.
So, I have fewer losses, as do the bombers which is a wash and the bomb runs cause about the same damage. The benefit for me is that I don't have to expend RnD on more models. As I say, I do build the NF models as they arrive.And frankly, given the AI's proclivity for night bombing, I don't have near enough NF air groups ever. I generally have to have ~35% of my fighter groups on night CAP in addition to all of the NF groups. So I see head 2 head comparison of results between fighters and NF's.

Shifting a few RnD to NF or not, won't, at least to me, make all that much difference in the end. Truly I think it is as much a panacea to how you think as much as it impacts the game. (I am as guilty as anyone).

Just me ... and I know contrary to common thought.

[el lobo]

Another great discussion. I am truly grateful to be the beneficiary of all this fine information.

I am R&Ding Ki-45 KAId Nick and the J1N1-S Irving. I am not R&Ding the Myrt but have it on my build list. The Ki-46-III KAI Dinah was not on my build list but I added it with notation to do further research. Maybe I'll do the same with the Frances. I am R&Ding the Ki-102b Randy FB but not the 102c NF. I think I will do as Pax does and put the FB on night cap. I did not realize the the Randy has so many problems getting stuff. Need more research on that.

[el lobo]

Here is my Build Chart for anyone interested and can understand it.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: el lobo

Another great discussion. I am truly grateful to be the beneficiary of all this fine information.

I am R&Ding Ki-45 KAId Nick and the J1N1-S Irving. I am not R&Ding the Myrt but have it on my build list. The Ki-46-III KAI Dinah was not on my build list but I added it with notation to do further research. Maybe I'll do the same with the Frances. I am R&Ding the Ki-102b Randy FB but not the 102c NF. I think I will do as Pax does and put the FB on night cap. I did not realize the the Randy has so many problems getting stuff. Need more research on that.

This is a case where I would suggest you read Lowpe's thoughts as well as mine quite carefully add evaluate your game situation in the correct context. If you make strategic changes in your NF plan at this point, do so carefully and gradually. You are already in Q3Y42 ... that's fairly late to be making strategic RnD changes.
If you think you are leaning to my thoughts, then I would simply suggest that you put more fighter groups (ones with armor) on night CAP duty. Pair them with Irvings and watch the results. You can then form your own opinion on the matter and make adjustments in your next game to your RnD strategy.

Again, note my key statement: the AI does a ton of night bombing once it starts. Its kinda funny, it won't do any for while and then it starts. Once it starts it just seems to really go for it. I mean I have turns where 1/3 of all allied bombing missions are night missions, and this will go on for months and months .... most PBEM games have HR's that would not allow this. AI doesn't play with HR's.
Your game doesn't seem to look like that. You may have enough NF groups to cover what you need. In which case putting fighter groups to NF duty doesn't make good sense ... my position is the opposite; I don't have near enough air groups to meet the threat that my AI opponent presents.

[PaxMondo]

Nothing wrong with your RnD, all of your aircraft are good choices. Me? You know I do this differently.
For PDU ON I research far fewer models. I build many of the same models that everyone else does for the same reasons that they do. I simply don't RnD most of them.

So for the IJA fighters, I might RnD Oscar and Frank. Then I will also build the Tojo and late Tony as they arrive, but no RnD on them. I actually HATE the IJA fighter line because all of the 3rd Gen IJA fighters have a significant defect in them:

Ki-83 - 2E
Ki-93 - 2E, slow
Ki-94 - weak armament
Ki-119 - SLOW
Ki-202 - weak armament, short range
Ki-201 - 2E

So, I end having to choose between using a 2E fighter (Ki-83/Ki-202) or a 1E with not great armament (Ki-94). Yuck.
Compare these to the Shinden ...

[obvert]

Most of the late war fighters you'll never get to use if the Allies are playing well. So I would now pick those with a solid R & D line such as J2M, N1K, Tony/Ki-100, and Ki-84. The Ki-83 is awesome and gettable, since it comes slightly earlier, as is the J7W. The A7M is a must.

Other than that, don't waste your supply on them unless you wipe the Allied CVs in late 42 and know he's going to be taking a bit longer to come to you with the B-29s.

For NF check the groups and lines that are possible. I would make anything and everything, but concentrate on Irving and Nick Id. Build some of the A6M NF as they are 1E and cheaper and you have tons of those engines by the end. They die but stop some of the bombing too. The Dinah and Judy and Myrt die a lot, but do intercept. I actually like the Frances NF because of its durability.

[Lowpe]

There are only 22 squadrons that convert to NF. And some of them withdraw![X(]

If your game goes into night bombing, which is likely if you have a stiff daytime defense and a good perimeter come 44 and 45, then you will need every one of those squadrons as a NF.

In 43 anything within 20 hexes or so is extremely vulnerable to 4Es at night and putting day fighters on night duty is no answer. Closer than 20 hexes is even worse, when those 4Es carry full bomb loads.

To get those squadrons you need Nick,Dinah and Irving. Irving is first, but small sized. You want to add Nicks quickly.

If you wait and don't r&d them, you will be behind the curve and have an impossible time protecting your runways in 1943 ceding the air war to the Allies. Your best bet then is to use a 10% CAP with Glens and Petes. 1 plane will usually intercept, but not close but it still disrupts the bombers aim. You will need play of AA.

Using fighters at night, from my experience not Pax's, is to lose them over and over again to the bombers guns with only the occasional success. This is gone into at great depth in my AAR with Tiemanj,several threads in the war room, etc.

Read Obvert vs Joc to see what happens to Japan at night if you fall behind the NF curve.

Late war planes are really tough to get, and probably impossible if the Allies do a halfway decent job. But you should be able to get Frank, Jack, George, Tony plus a very strong effort on Sam. Oscar IV are decent too, very close to an A6M8.

Of those it takes Frank or Sam to stop the Jugs sweeps.

[el lobo]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

This is a case where I would suggest you read Lowpe's thoughts as well as mine quite carefully add evaluate your game situation in the correct context. If you make strategic changes in your NF plan at this point, do so carefully and gradually.

Pax, not a change in strategy. Back in Post 219, Apr '42, I already had these two model NF R&Ding.

I am sorry that I am not making myself clear.

When I said that I might use a FB on night CAP, I meant that I will adapt to use what I have at the time. If all I have are FB at the time night CAP is needed, then that is what I will use. Just like now. I have four Ki-45 KAIa Nick groups flying night CAP because that is the best I can do at this moment. I don't know if Rio is going to night bomb but I want to be as ready as I can if he does. (These bases also have Nicks flying day CAP.)

[el lobo]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Nothing wrong with your RnD, all of your aircraft are good choices. Me? You know I do this differently.

Thank you. Yes I know you do.

I am walking the line between your minimalist strategy, Lowpe's pragmatic pbem strategy, and little nuggets I pick-up along the way.

I have not intentionally deviated to much from your suggestions really. If it were not for your input I would probably R&Ding everything Japan has.

[el lobo]

ORIGINAL: obvert

Most of the late war fighters you'll never get to use if the Allies are playing well. So I would now pick those with a solid R & D line such as J2M, N1K, Tony/Ki-100, and Ki-84. The Ki-83 is awesome and gettable, since it comes slightly earlier, as is the J7W. The A7M is a must.

Other than that, don't waste your supply on them unless you wipe the Allied CVs in late 42 and know he's going to be taking a bit longer to come to you with the B-29s.

For NF check the groups and lines that are possible. I would make anything and everything, but concentrate on Irving and Nick Id. Build some of the A6M NF as they are 1E and cheaper and you have tons of those engines by the end. They die but stop some of the bombing too. The Dinah and Judy and Myrt die a lot, but do intercept. I actually like the Frances NF because of its durability.

Hay obvert.

I have the Ki-83 on my list. I crossed it out, but at the time I did that it was just to remind me not to R&D it, but I did not remove it. I was afraid of the two engine malus, so you can blame Pax for my not R&Ding it. [:)]

MrKane also liked this plane so given the opportunity and resources I will R&D it.

Thanks for the input.

[el lobo]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

There are only 22 squadrons that convert to NF. And some of them withdraw![X(]

If your game goes into night bombing, which is likely if you have a stiff daytime defense and a good perimeter come 44 and 45, then you will need every one of those squadrons as a NF.

In 43 anything within 20 hexes or so is extremely vulnerable to 4Es at night and putting day fighters on night duty is no answer. Closer than 20 hexes is even worse, when those 4Es carry full bomb loads.

To get those squadrons you need Nick,Dinah and Irving. Irving is first, but small sized. You want to add Nicks quickly.

If you wait and don't r&d them, you will be behind the curve and have an impossible time protecting your runways in 1943 ceding the air war to the Allies. Your best bet then is to use a 10% CAP with Glens and Petes. 1 plane will usually intercept, but not close but it still disrupts the bombers aim. You will need play of AA.

Using fighters at night, from my experience not Pax's, is to lose them over and over again to the bombers guns with only the occasional success. This is gone into at great depth in my AAR with Tiemanj,several threads in the war room, etc.

Read Obvert vs Joc to see what happens to Japan at night if you fall behind the NF curve.

Late war planes are really tough to get, and probably impossible if the Allies do a halfway decent job. But you should be able to get Frank, Jack, George, Tony plus a very strong effort on Sam. Oscar IV are decent too, very close to an A6M8.

Of those it takes Frank or Sam to stop the Jugs sweeps.

Lowpe, again, please accept my apologizes for not making myself clear.

I am doing NFs.

Of the three “musts” you mentioned in your previous post, I have been R&Ding two of since at least Apr '42, probably earlier.. I will build other model NFs but I will have to wait until they come on their own. I just do not have the resources to R&D them all at this time.

Please read my response to Pax above.

[el lobo]

PRODUCTION Sep 1, 1942 Turn 269

Oil is down and fuel up because I turned-on the refinery at Rangoon to pump-up fuel there.