Italy conquered by China...

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TeaLeaf
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Italy conquered by China...

Post by TeaLeaf »

As the title says...
I cannot otherwise think but this must be a very annoying bug.

A picture and savegame (second post) are included. The Savegame is after... China... conquered Italy,
and the German units in the allied pocket around Rome were magically allowed to zap into Corsica and Yugoslavia.

The latter fact is only slightly less strange than China conquering Italy, if you ask me.
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TeaLeaf
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RE: Italy conquered by China...

Post by TeaLeaf »

And the savegame
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Centuur
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RE: Italy conquered by China...

Post by Centuur »

Do you have a saved game from before the conquest phase? An autosave from the reform units or production phase would give more info how you did this...

The behaviour of the German units is correct, if Germany isn't at war with China. But apart from that, I'm really curious...
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TeaLeaf
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RE: Italy conquered by China...

Post by TeaLeaf »

A save from the Reform units it is then ;-).
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paulderynck
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RE: Italy conquered by China...

Post by paulderynck »

Very messed up. Looks to me that this is an example of Italy surrendering by the special rule for Italy but because German units are in Rome, MWiF doesn't know who the conqueror is, and picks China. Since China and Germany are neutral with respect to each other, the normal "teleportation" rules properly kick-in for units in a country that are not at war with the conqueror of that country.



Paul
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RE: Italy conquered by China...

Post by paulderynck »

If you have a save even further back - say Break Down Corps-Armies, I'd like to see it please. With beta tools I can try to change hex control in Rome to CW or USA and see what happens. That might fix your game so you can play on, although the units in Rome might have to be relocated.
Paul
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TeaLeaf
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RE: Italy conquered by China...

Post by TeaLeaf »

Thanks for the effort, Paul, I have included that save in this reply.

Can some1 also please enlighten me:
Doesn't Italy only have special conquest-rules (as in: no special surrender-rules)?
I am unaware of Italy also having special Surrender rules. AFAIK, Italy may be given the option to Surrender (just like any other MP).
But that is not the case here, since there is no choice. Italy suddenly becomes (incompletely) conquered by China and that's it.
AFAICS, this shouldn't be possible under surrender rules, but correct me if I'm wrong!

Italy should be given the option to surrender first, and if it chooses to do so, why would China be involved?
ITALY controls Rome and all hexes not controlled by Wallies, so I don't think MWiF should even look at who controls Rome. If it is for conquest implementation (after Italy chose to surrender), shouldn't MWiF just check which MP at war with Italy (so, not Germany in this case because that is an ally of Italy) controls the most factories/Rome of the hexes not controlled by Italy itself? Just thinking out loud [8D].
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RE: Italy conquered by China...

Post by paulderynck »

Pardon me for a bad choice of wording. I meant conquest conditions either way as in the normal ones or the special ones for Italy. And what I said about Rome was my theory of the bug, as it definitely is a bug.

Italy can only surrender voluntarily when it controls neither Rome nor four other factories in Italy, which is not the case here. But the Allies appear to have fulfilled three of the four conditions for the Italian "special" conquest, and that's all it takes.
Paul
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TeaLeaf
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RE: Italy conquered by China...

Post by TeaLeaf »

Thanks!

And just in case it helps finding the root of the bug:

Italy has been conquered already. M/J '43 it was, I believe. It was liberated immediately during that same turn and so what happens in the saves I posted is the second conquest. I'm not sure that second time is supposed to be 'special'as well ;-).
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RE: Italy conquered by China...

Post by paulderynck »

Actually from your "ReformCorps" game save I can get all the hex and country control fixed, but can't stop the Germans from relocating. The ones in the Rome pocket all have to go to Corsica although I could temporarily change hex control and force them into Yugoslavia. (The farther they need to move, the more hexes I have to temporarily change control of, so they need to go somewhere reasonable.) The ones north of Milan are being forced to go to Germany.

In the "BreakDown" game save, for some reason, I can't get past the production step. I get a warning about unsaved French BPs, but no matter whether I choose 'Yes' or 'No', the green button to continue the phase will not illuminate. So I'm unable to proceed with testing that one. Besides, without knowing all your production plans, I'd be building all the wrong units.

Edit: I think the USSR was the last to build, so maybe a saved game from USSR Production step with instructions?

BTW the German Armor in Rome can re-org since Rome is a supply source until the Conquest step and they can access the Italian oil there. (Use of cooperating country oil was always in RAC and will be available to players in the next release.) I can fix that too if I can get the conquest to work correctly. The advantage of getting it to work based on US or CW control of Rome is that only the German units in Rome need to relocate.
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RE: Italy conquered by China...

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

We finally landed in Sydney after being at sea for a couple of weeks.

The wifi on the ship was abysmally slow (do you remember 110 baud?). So I have been more or less out-of-the-loop since leaving Honolulu March 9th. The hotel's wifi is much better, so now I can at least read email and posts and reply to same.

I should be able to get back to work on MWIF using my home computer next week and help out with this kind of stuff.

Steve
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paulderynck
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RE: Italy conquered by China...

Post by paulderynck »

ORIGINAL: TeaLeaf

Thanks!

And just in case it helps finding the root of the bug:

Italy has been conquered already. M/J '43 it was, I believe. It was liberated immediately during that same turn and so what happens in the saves I posted is the second conquest. I'm not sure that second time is supposed to be 'special'as well ;-).
Aha! Then there appears to be two bugs. One is that the special conquest is happening again and secondarily that China is selected as the conqueror.

By the rules, once Italy is liberated, then the only way it can be conquered again is by the Allies taking Rome. Also it would be a bug to have Italy both conquered and liberated in the same turn. Under Liberation, the rules state: "You can’t be liberated in the same turn you were conquered (only possible in Italy’s case)." I've heard the "only possible" portion has been misunderstood by some to mean it's an exception to the "can't" part, but in actuality, it is there to say the only time to worry about needing to apply that rule is in Italy's case.


Paul
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TeaLeaf
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RE: Italy conquered by China...

Post by TeaLeaf »

Thanks for the attention guys.

I must admit I'm not sure Germany Liberated Italy the same turn it was specially conquered or 1 turn later, but I must agree on the two bugs. I understand the rules indeed as you stated, Paul; after liberation Italy can only be conquered again if the allies take Rome (and all factorystacks, I presume?).

To answer your other questions:
If you can't prevent the Germans from relocating, could you instead destroy them? USA was planning to do so next turn anyway (not much Germany can do about that). I should just play the allies in S/O as if those Germans are still there.
If they cannot be removed from the map (back into the German force pools), then they should be relocated to some place where they cannot interfere with the allied advance anymore (Corsica and some islands east of Italy are fine for parking those units).

In case you have to repair the game from the Russian production, please build 4FTR2, 2LND2, 1LND3, 4P, 2GUN (1ART, 1SPART) and a chit.
As an alternative, isn't it possible to just take the savegame where I already relocated the German troops and change control of Chinese Hexes to the CW or USA?

And what about the Italian hexes (and troops) north of Leningrad?
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paulderynck
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RE: Italy conquered by China...

Post by paulderynck »

The second time a country gets conquered, only the capital needs to be taken. The "special" Italian conquest rule can only happen once in a game and can only be a first time conquest. When a country is conquered a second time, all its units are removed from the game.

Now the problem here is that by the rules Italy won't be out of the game until the next conquest phase when Rome falls. So the Italians north of Leningrad are around for awhile yet and if in supply can contemplate some last gasp attacks against evil communism.

Besides doing as you said for Rome, arrange to walk a unit into the capital of Albania and Italy should be completely conquered and hopefully the game will do the Italian unit removal for you. But if not, you can certainly post a saved game again to this thread.

So here's your game, repaired as you suggested. The German units in the Rome pocket are in the Force Pool, just as they'd be at the end of next turn. Italy is controlled by the USA and the Chinese oil point was simply removed since China can't trace to it and the Allies probably have plenty.
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Paul
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TeaLeaf
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RE: Italy conquered by China...

Post by TeaLeaf »

Thanks for the help and the info!
The save is working great, I just played a little with it :-).
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