The new Cold War turned hot wargame from On Target Simulations, now expanded with the Player's Edition! Choose the NATO or Soviet forces in one of many scenarios or two linked campaigns. No effort was spared to model modern warfare realistically, including armor, infantry, helicopters, air support, artillery, electronic warfare, chemical and nuclear weapons. An innovative new asynchronous turn order means that OODA loops and various effects on C3 are accurately modeled as never before.
I've noticed for a while now that it's typically around 60 minutes from the time I order an attack (any attack whether as NATO or WP) to the time it actually commences. Am I right in breaking that down as 30 minutes for attack prep plus another 30 minutes for a posture change? AS WP my orders delay has been hovering around 30 minutes. So is it orders delay at approx.30 mins plus another 30 mins for attack prep? With the 30 mins for posture change included in the 30 min attack prep?? But that doesn't explain NATO unless it's attack prep plus posture change?
Or, or, or, or....
Rob.
So we're at war with the Russkies eh?? I suppose we really ought to invade or something. (Lonnnng pause while studying the map)
Hmmmm... big place ain't it??
- Sir Harry Flashman (1854)
Rob do you happen to have a save game of that turn? Was this delay from the initial game start orders or an order given later? Thanks for the report.
Here's one as WP player. You'll need STIMPAK's BGB campaign (which is fun and challenging btw) for the save. Check out BQ1 from Panzer Regiment 22. I've eliminated all player initiated waypoint delays but there is still around an hour to kick-off.
hmmm.. doesn't like zip or cav files...now what?
Rob.
EDIT: SENT TO YOU VIA PM. PLEASE CONFIRM RECEIPT
So we're at war with the Russkies eh?? I suppose we really ought to invade or something. (Lonnnng pause while studying the map)
Hmmmm... big place ain't it??
- Sir Harry Flashman (1854)
We will talk about this in our weekly Developer call tonight, but it could be a few days before we have any information. When we do we will let you know. [8D]
OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!
Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC
I would like to chime into this discussion. This has been an issue that I have been struggling with the programmers for about 4 years. From the very beginning we were up front about some limitations with the engine. First it abstracts several elements (such as supply, withdrawal/scooting, orders and delays) but that in turn makes the game run smooth. There are other games that have tried this scale that in my humble opinion failed because they tried to be too detailed and the program bogged down in the details. We have tried to be accurate in as many things as possible, but there were some areas that just needed to be abstracted for the program to run and not loose the player in the process. Second, we knew there were limitations in the engine that we wanted to improve as time went on. We could have done the improvements from the beginning, but you would still be waiting on this game. In fact, it might have become vaporware. We knew we had a good game that did lots of things right and was fun to play. However, it had some limitations. Two of those were areas that people have and continue to complain about (it is ok to complain--we do hear you--and I have been complaining about these things longer than anyone). They are scooting and orders delay. From what I am seeing on my end from playing and testing, the orders delays have not really changed. 4 years ago I was complaining about units taking an hour to move. Rob and Jim have tweaked the program several times on my insistence. They really have taken it as far as it can go. I don't see it getting better in Red Storm. There are many elements that can effect orders delays and some are inside the engine and transparent to the player. Some, however, are fairly logical. I had a situation today where I gave two units deliberate movement orders. One had a delay of over 50 minutes, there other around 20. They were not that far from each other. Then I looked everything over, I realized the unit with the longer movement orders were outside the command range of it HQ.
You keep hearing us talk about Southern Storm or the 2.1 engine. This is what we hope to be the evolution of this game. This was part of our long term goal and also the efforts of learning from our mistakes. We hope to improve upon several issues in Southern Storm over Red Storm. Two of them are scooting/withdrawal and orders delays. We have some design plans in both those areas. In order to get Southern Storm out, it means that Rob is going to have to pull away from Red Storm. If does not mean that we are abandoning Red Storm--we are not. But it does mean we have to quit chasing ghosts and things that we know we can't really fix in Red Storm. Southern Storm is going to take some time to get out the door. Rob is going to have to rewrite quite a bit of the engine code and also write new code for some of the new features that we feel will do more than just improve the game. Patience is going to be a virtue--so to speak.
Regarding orders delays, they are a reality that commanders have to deal with. In some aspects of orders delays, Red Storm works very well. However, there are some areas that it really doesn't. I was a staff officer working in an armored Bn and mech Bde and I can tell you that the orders delays are not that out of line. There are a few hiccups that could be better. Managing time is part of the process. Getting orders out timely and maintaining your net is crucial. But things happen. We had lost commo with one of our battalions once. I was sent as a runner with new orders--unfortunately my jeep hit a mud patch and I got stuck--it took me over an hour to dig out. Needless to say, the "orders delay" for that battalion was ridiculously long. You don't want to know what the S-3, XO, and the Cdr of the Bde said to me when I got back. You think you get upset with orders delay!!!
One last thing--This is NOT the official OTS position. This is my personal opinion and observations--and I am the low man on the totem pole in the OTS HQ. I am not trying to dismiss or belittle your frustration with some of these issues. I know orders delays and scooting can be very frustrating at times. Get use to it commander. Things don't always go as planned. Overall tho, I think Red Storm creates the feel for what a bde commander goes thru in fighting a battle. I have been playing Red Storm for about 4 years now. It still pulls me back into the Bde TOC when I am playing a scenario. Right now, in my opinion, the game is playing well. We had a hiccup a few patches ago, and I think Rob and Jim have done a good job in ironing them out.
Regarding orders delays, they are a reality that commanders have to deal with. In some aspects of orders delays, Red Storm works very well. However, there are some areas that it really doesn't. I was a staff officer working in an armored Bn and mech Bde and I can tell you that the orders delays are not that out of line.
Agreed, and having experience in a mech Bde HQ and as a mech Co Cdr, I know, I know. But there's such a BIG difference between a change-of-mission OPORD soup-to-nuts and the execution of pre-planned contingencies as part of the issued OPORD and the hasty execution of FRAGOs issued by your immediate HQ or higher TOC for reacting to stuff that happens. So there is also such a BIG difference in the delays in issuing/executing those different orders types. The frustrating thing in the current game is that it doesn't seem to differentiate between them at all, leading to excessively long delays to execute simple FRAGOs to screening forces.
It is what it is, and I accept that things aren't likely to change much until Southern Storm. So be it. But if anything, considering all of the other folks questioning these delays, perhaps simply cutting in half whatever time delay factors are already in the game should/could be reconsidered. $0.02, FWIW.
Bill Macon
Empires in Arms Developer
Strategic Command Developer
Regarding orders delays, they are a reality that commanders have to deal with. In some aspects of orders delays, Red Storm works very well. However, there are some areas that it really doesn't. I was a staff officer working in an armored Bn and mech Bde and I can tell you that the orders delays are not that out of line.
Agreed, and having experience in a mech Bde HQ and as a mech Co Cdr, I know, I know. But there's such a BIG difference between a change-of-mission OPORD soup-to-nuts and the execution of pre-planned contingencies as part of the issued OPORD and the hasty execution of FRAGOs issued by your immediate HQ or higher TOC for reacting to stuff that happens. So there is also such a BIG difference in the delays in issuing/executing those different orders types. The frustrating thing in the current game is that it doesn't seem to differentiate between them at all, leading to excessively long delays to execute simple FRAGOs to screening forces.
It is what it is, and I accept that things aren't likely to change much until Southern Storm. So be it. But if anything, considering all of the other folks questioning these delays, perhaps simply cutting in half whatever time delay factors are already in the game should/could be reconsidered. $0.02, FWIW.
That is what the current orders delay doesn't get are the battle drills/pre-planned contingencies and the local commanders initiative to make changes to meet a developing threat. From what I have been told in the past, it is not that easy to "cut it in half" or to cap the amt of delays. It would impact too many other things in the code. Yes, there are times that will be frustrating to the player when you want a unit to move now. However, I still have found that overall the program works and it has been only a minor irritant to me in the overall play of a scenario.
Well said Charles. Except for the low man comment. Being one of three guys on the team who was in the army in the 80s, you provide invaluable information and input into the mechanics of the game.
OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!
Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC
I totally understand the limitations of the game engine and as such, these comments are coming from my own personal experiences as a tank PSG and Master Gunner. (This is a GREAT GAME!)
Being another one of those guys that served from 77-97 (14 yrs in the FRG)as a 19 Series, I can attest to the fact that yes, there can be delays, but taking 30-60 minutes before EXECUTING a 1000m move to a secondary battle position is not, IMHO, realistic. If my Co Cdr came over the net and said "Blue, displace to BP 2 now over" My response was "Roger Over" and then send the word out over the Plt Net or by hand signals. In less than 10 minutes,( AND THAT WAS TOO LONG) we were moving.
Yes, you are always going to run into factors that will delay a unit getting its orders (as in the limited amount of orders due to the heavy EW environment of "A Time to Dance" (This method I like) but maybe the time to EXECUTION should be reduced (5-15 minute delay) once the order is received. The time to get from point A to B is already modeled by the type of move order you give.
Bootlegger267 I completely agree with you. I have been arguing that same point for quite a while. But the problem is the code is what it is. We are working to correct this problem. But unfortunately it can't be done with the current engine. It's not that flexible. That is an area what will have to be rewritten. See my comments above. With that said, the game still plays pretty good with these limitations - and the overall results are fairly what you would expect.
Seems like my request for info on the mechanics that drive orders delay has sparked some interest......
I too understand and accept that the engine is what it is and that if it now takes an hour (or however much longer) then that's what it takes. I've already accepted it and make in game plans accordingly. I was, and am, more interested in how the determination is made more than I am with the actual time involved. And yes, I also wondered if maybe something had inadvertently been broken as well.
I enjoy this game very much and am looking forward to Southern Storm. OTS will continue to have my patronage and support.
Thanks for a great gaming experience!
Rob.
So we're at war with the Russkies eh?? I suppose we really ought to invade or something. (Lonnnng pause while studying the map)
Hmmmm... big place ain't it??
- Sir Harry Flashman (1854)
The Mad Russian is still around. He, like all of us in OTS, has had health problems lately. I was out of commission for about 3 weeks. We spoke yesterday and he was in the Developers call last night.
I have been playing Red Storm longer than anyone. I have seem it go thru all kinds of changes and improvement (and some not so much). I too feel it is playing as well as it ever have now. As I have repeated numerous times, it has its weaknesses. They can cause some frustration, but the game still gives the players a good experience and the outcomes seem reasonable. Thanks for everyones' comments.
Regarding orders delays, they are a reality that commanders have to deal with. In some aspects of orders delays, Red Storm works very well. However, there are some areas that it really doesn't. I was a staff officer working in an armored Bn and mech Bde and I can tell you that the orders delays are not that out of line.
Agreed, and having experience in a mech Bde HQ and as a mech Co Cdr, I know, I know. But there's such a BIG difference between a change-of-mission OPORD soup-to-nuts and the execution of pre-planned contingencies as part of the issued OPORD and the hasty execution of FRAGOs issued by your immediate HQ or higher TOC for reacting to stuff that happens. So there is also such a BIG difference in the delays in issuing/executing those different orders types. The frustrating thing in the current game is that it doesn't seem to differentiate between them at all, leading to excessively long delays to execute simple FRAGOs to screening forces.
Out of curiosity, what do you think the delay times should be for levels of pre-planning you are talking about?
And to what degree would you expect jamming to affect those orders being both received and acted upon?
Good Hunting.
The most expensive thing in the world is free time.
Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.
ORIGINAL: bootlegger267
Being another one of those guys that served from 77-97 (14 yrs in the FRG)as a 19 Series, I can attest to the fact that yes, there can be delays, but taking 30-60 minutes before EXECUTING a 1000m move to a secondary battle position is not, IMHO, realistic. If my Co Cdr came over the net and said "Blue, displace to BP 2 now over" My response was "Roger Over" and then send the word out over the Plt Net or by hand signals. In less than 10 minutes,( AND THAT WAS TOO LONG) we were moving.
For MR: what he said. This ain't rocket surgery. No point haggling about something that isn't going to change for now, and until youse guys share with us what the Southern Storm C&C model is going to look like with HQs vs TOCs, limited orders or not, execution of pre-plans vs FRAGOs vs OPORDs, etc., well there's no point haggling about any of that stuff either. So we'll wait and see what Santa brings us in the new game engine one of these days. Keeping fingers crossed... [:)]
Bill Macon
Empires in Arms Developer
Strategic Command Developer
Well, the silence suggests that this all WAD, which is fair enough by me. I was just curious as to how that average of 60 mins was being derived and am making allowances for that in planning.
Not complaining, maybe whining a little, just asking.
Rob.[:)]
So we're at war with the Russkies eh?? I suppose we really ought to invade or something. (Lonnnng pause while studying the map)
Hmmmm... big place ain't it??
- Sir Harry Flashman (1854)
