Most important improvements

Tigers on the Hunt is a World War 2 hard-core tactical wargame for PC.

It creates a truly and immersive depth tactical simulation. Tigers on the Hunt boasts a ferocious and adaptive AI which will dynamically respond to a player’s maneuvers.

Moderators: Peter Fisla, Paullus

jhpanther
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Most important improvements

Post by jhpanther »

I think this game has the potential to be the best squad combat game ever. I find however, that the limitation of the game is the lack of network play. The AI requires way too much work to be realistic and there will always be a demand for human-human play. So my advice is: after solving the known bugs, focus entirely on network play.
JKING
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Jafele
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RE: Most important improvements

Post by Jafele »

I think the opposite. Once they solve the known bugs they should focus on AI improvements. There are plenty of games you can play in MP out there, only a few have a challenging AI.
Las batallas contra las mujeres son las únicas que se ganan huyendo.

NAPOLEÓN BONAPARTE


Cuando el necio oye la verdad se carcajea, porque si no lo hiciera la verdad no sería la verdad.

LAO TSE
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Cataphract88
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RE: Most important improvements

Post by Cataphract88 »

ORIGINAL: Jafele

I think the opposite. Once they solve the known bugs they should focus on AI improvements. There are plenty of games you can play in MP out there, only a few have a challenging AI.

+1
Richard
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Peter Fisla
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RE: Most important improvements

Post by Peter Fisla »

ORIGINAL: Jafele

I think the opposite. Once they solve the known bugs they should focus on AI improvements. There are plenty of games you can play in MP out there, only a few have a challenging AI.

Right, that's my plan...
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Jafele
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RE: Most important improvements

Post by Jafele »

Wow! Thanks Peter. You made my day. [&o] The AI is the soul of the game and make it special. [:)]
Las batallas contra las mujeres son las únicas que se ganan huyendo.

NAPOLEÓN BONAPARTE


Cuando el necio oye la verdad se carcajea, porque si no lo hiciera la verdad no sería la verdad.

LAO TSE
jhpanther
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RE: Most important improvements

Post by jhpanther »

Exactly. There are few games with a challenging AI because it is too difficult to make it react realistic. I think the present AI do it ok when in defense, but I think you will gain much more by making network possible and then implement the remaining to make the game ASL. An AI will keep you busy forever.
JKING
jhpanther
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RE: Most important improvements

Post by jhpanther »

I dont know if command problems were the biggest issues in squad level combat. The system with hard/very hard settings gives a more challenging AI, but you could get that also by giving the computer double firepower. That would not make it realistic , only challenging. By concentrating for a while on network you could after that concentrate on additional ASl rules and units without having to spend a lot of time testing AI for every new implementation

Dont misunderstand me. I am very happy with the game.
JKING
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Peter Fisla
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RE: Most important improvements

Post by Peter Fisla »

To have fun with the game play on Hard or Very Hard. All the scenarios that come with the game were designed with Hard difficulty in mind. The command and control feature is important feature of the game. On hard difficulty both the human player and the AI check for command and control. On Very Hard only the human player checks for command and control. The AI does not cheat and doesn't get any bonuses, I want to make this clear. In addition when designing new scenarios the AI will need a few more units and they need to be placed in the right locations on the map.
jhpanther
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RE: Most important improvements

Post by jhpanther »

I am probably not the only one who have been waiting for years for a ASL like game to simulate squad level combat. I also dont think I am the only one who would like it to be realistic. I think that is the most important thing to keep people interested in this game. After a while it is not enough it is challenging. I think you can code and tune an AI forever and never get it close to the level of a human player. es, your AI works fine with few weapons/units and in static defense positions but it does not react realistic enough when it has to cobe with changing conditions. My point is that you will never achieve this.
JKING
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Jafele
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RE: Most important improvements

Post by Jafele »

ORIGINAL: jhpanther

I think you can code and tune an AI forever and never get it close to the level of a human player. es, your AI works fine with few weapons/units and in static defense positions but it does not react realistic enough when it has to cobe with changing conditions. My point is that you will never achieve this.

That traditional mentality is the reason why there are no games with challenging AI nowdays. We don´t need more short-lived games, instead something different.
Las batallas contra las mujeres son las únicas que se ganan huyendo.

NAPOLEÓN BONAPARTE


Cuando el necio oye la verdad se carcajea, porque si no lo hiciera la verdad no sería la verdad.

LAO TSE
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Cataphract88
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RE: Most important improvements

Post by Cataphract88 »

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla

ORIGINAL: Jafele

I think the opposite. Once they solve the known bugs they should focus on AI improvements. There are plenty of games you can play in MP out there, only a few have a challenging AI.

Right, that's my plan...

Bravo, Peter!
Richard
snowbird
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RE: Most important improvements

Post by snowbird »

Totally agree with Peter and others -- focus on AI improvement. VASL (well established) can fill the network online play need.
Gerry4321
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RE: Most important improvements

Post by Gerry4321 »

VASL requires knowing the ASL rulebook.

fluidwill
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RE: Most important improvements

Post by fluidwill »

An AI does not lie awake at night coming up with new and inventive ways of countering your favourite tactic. An AI does not form a relationship that evolves over time involving mutual respect and bluff double triple and so on dependent on shared history.

That said, all I ever wanted was a decent solo SL experience. Thing is, if you provide a decent PvP experience, that's it, THEN you can spend as many eons as you like tweaking the AI.

Sorry for the garble - on phone
idjester
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RE: Most important improvements

Post by idjester »

Who says there has to be an either/or option.. Let Peter work on the AI as his plans indicate and then maybe down the line they will add in a multiplayer option.. There really doesn't need to be a debate
about which one is right or better.

I'm just happy we have a game to play and both of those options would be good..
snowbird
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RE: Most important improvements

Post by snowbird »

Agreed -- almost wrote the same response above as idjester [:)]

Gerry has a good point too -- no ASL rulebook is required for this game.

Essentially, AI first and potentially multiplayer down the road.
jhpanther
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RE: Most important improvements

Post by jhpanther »

Traditional thinking or not. I have worked with AI development and know how challenging it is. The complexity increases by the number of combinations (read weapons, unit etc). With limited development resources, I just try to say, that if the AI will never be good enough to keep gamers interested in the game (what I fear) then time is better used implementing human-human play.
JKING
MikeMarchant_ssl
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RE: Most important improvements

Post by MikeMarchant_ssl »

For what it's worth, my view on this is that multiplayer has to be the way to go if you want the game to survive long term.

An excellent AI is undoubtedly a good thing and something to be aspired to, but I don't think this will keep a sufficient number of players interested in the long term, even with the excellent work that people are putting in to develop new mods and new scenarios.

In my experience, playing computer games since the late 70s, the games which survive for many years are those which provide players with a chance to compete with each other, and that competition isn't going to be practical without some kind of multiplayer system built into the game itself.

If you are really serious about this being a long term project, Peter, and I believe you are, then I fear that the number of people who will be playing this game in 5 years will dwindle down to next to nothing with just an AI to play against. Multiplayer allows competitions to be set up, leagues and tournaments for people to take part in, for players to interact with each other in a more meaningful and competitive way than is possible at the moment. In my view, it is games that do this (like Field of Glory, for example) that can keep people devoted and loyal and playing long term.

Just imagine, Peter, still developing this game, still have a large and devoted following, in ten years time. I don't believe that will be possible with no multiplayer option, even if people are very enthusiastic now, less than a month after release.

Just trying to help.


Best Wishes

Mike
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TomBombadil711
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RE: Most important improvements

Post by TomBombadil711 »

I agree to what MikeMarchant_ssl said. Although I am really enjoying fighting the AI at the moment, especially with all the mods and new scenarios already released, I would love to play a human opponent in the future. I made two posts at The Blitz and The Few Good Men to draw the attention to idjester's TOTH live stream and after a closer look many complained about the absence of multiplayer. I am sure many more gamers would purchase the game with a MP feature.
rickier65
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RE: Most important improvements

Post by rickier65 »

ORIGINAL: MikeMarchant_ssl

For what it's worth, my view on this is that multiplayer has to be the way to go if you want the game to survive long term.
....
Mike

I have to agree with this.

Unless you can find a way to identify an definable and achievable goal with AI improvement, you may find improving the AI is a never-ending task.

I would suggest trying to scope out a definable AI improvement goal, and work on that. But also implement some form of MP.

Just my 2-cents worth ( or 2 loonies worth ).

thanks
Rick
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