Comparing Games and Help Needed

[Harrybanana]

I am currently playing two 43 Campaign games against very skilled opponents. In one game I am playing the Germans against QBall, in the other I am playing the Allies against Liquid Sky. In some ways the games are very similar and in other ways quite different. I think comparing the games as they were as of April 1, 1944 (T40) is quite interesting.

Liquid Sky has started an AAR which summarizes our game. In my game against QBall he reduced Sicily to 3 landings and redirected 2TFs to Sardinia and 1 to Corsica. I defended Sicily and Corsica with Germans but not Sardinia. As a result I was able to delay Italy's surrender until T11 (or something like that) and even managed to isolate and destroy 3 divisions on Corsica. He invaded Corsica a second time and captured it. QBall also invaded the Northern part of the Toe and around Foggia and was able to maneuver me to retreat back to the Gustav line without hardly firing a shot. In the process of retreating I lost a few regiments and Allied casualties were light. Having reached the Gustav line QBall stopped. However, in the winter he invaded around Piombino. I contained the invasion and he made no attempt to force me back. The lines have stayed like this for several months. Rome is still held by the Germans, but I have had to commit quite a few units to defending the Gustav Line, containing the Piombino invasion and Coastal defense against further invasions. I could shorten my lines considerably by retreating to the Gothic Line; but I refuse to give up Rome without a fight.

So the main differences on the ground between the two games are that in my game with Liquid Sky:
1. He did not contest me at all with Germans on the 3 islands, but fought very hard on mainland Italy.
2. Italy surrendered on T6.
3. The Allies captured Rome before the end of 43.
4. Both Allied and German casualties are over 10% higher.

In the Air Game the main differences are that:
1. QBall and I are both targeting HI, Fuel, Oil, Manpower and Vehicles. But QBall is targeting Fuel and Oil a little less than me and Vehicles more. He is also targeting AFV production and I am not. Accordingly, I am targeting the VP industry more than him and therefore should be earning a few more SB VPs.
2. In my game with QBall I am basing my Fs and FBs further back than Liquid Sky is. As a result the air losses on both sides have been much greater in my game with Liquid Sky.

[Harrybanana]

Below is the Information comparing Ground Losses in the two games as of T40. As you can see Liquid Sky (on the right) has lost more men, artillery and AFVs (especially AFVs) than I have in my game with QBall. Also I believe more of his losses were to Germans than in my game with Qball as my Italians fought until T11 while LS's were out of the game by T6.

[Harrybanana]

Now we have the Air Losses. You can see how much more violent the Air War has been in my game with Liquid Sky. In particular he has lost almost 1300 more F & FB aircraft (and probably about 1000 more F & FB pilots) than I have in my game with QBall.

[Harrybanana]

As you can see the Total VPs for both games are very close. QBall has gained a few more SB VPs than me, which is surprising given that I have concentrated more on bombing the VP sites than him. Though I did spend a few turns with Bomber Command bombing units near Rome. I am currently gaining more per turn than him though. Of course I also gained more City VPs while at the same time took more casualties. As well Liquid Sky has been far more efficient at causing garrison negative VPs than me.

[Harrybanana]

Now the most surprising screenshot of all, our current strengths. As you can see, notwithstanding that he has taken more losses both on the ground and in the air, Liquid Sky has 125,000+ more ground troops, 500+ more AFVs and 1600+ more aircraft than I do.

[Harrybanana]

So now my questions. How does LS lose more men than me in my game with QBall, yet have 125,000 more men? I assume we are both scraping the barrel manpower wise. I have already disbanded the 4 WMBef Armies and those men have found there way into my front line units. Not sure if LS has done the same or not, but would it make any difference? QBall and I have both been targeting Manpower, so I believe I have probably produced as much manpower as LS. Even if not, could that make a difference of 125,000 men? Any one have any ideas?

How does Liquid Sky lose 1300 more AFVs than me in my game with QBall, but still have 500 more than me (a net difference of 1800 AFVs)? Part of the reason is because, as I said, QBall is bombing some of my AFV Production. But I don't think that even over 40 Turns that would make a difference of 1800 tanks. Any one have any guesses?

The difference is even more pronounced with our air forces. And I don't think LS is using untrained pilots either. He continues to shoot down my bombers and escorts at about a 3:1 ratio. If I had lost 1000 more F&FB Pilots in my game with QBall I would not have any trained F&FB pilots at all. Yet somehow LS is able to maintain these losses and still keep on ticking. So what is his secret? What is Liquid Sky doing right and what am I doing wrong? I realize you can't tell me what LS is doing right, but here is what I am doing as the Germans in my game with QBall, so please tell me what I am doing wrong:

1. At the begginnig of the game I set all single engine F, FB and NF air groups to accept Trained Pilots Only. In hindsight I should have left my NFs on "Normal" so that they would take untrained pilots and gain experience on the job. I have left them this way throughout the game, but have added Untrained Pilots to a couple Air groups that were very low on pilots anyway.

2. I set all the other German airgroups (LB, TACB, TR, PA, Recon, etc) to Restricted so they wouldn't get any pilots. I have left them this way, but again have added untrained pilots to some air groups.

3. I set my Auto Training so that none of my air groups would ever train. My understanding is that this would just be a waste of fuel.

4. I changed the HQ for all my Fs, FBs and NFs to Luftlotte 2 as this has the best leader. I changed the HQ of all my other air groups to Luftlotte 3. So I have essentially only used these 3 Luftlottes the whole game. All the other Air HQs have no air groups under their command.

5. I have generally concentrated my Fs and FBs in central Germany in a box where the corners are Hamburg, Frankfurt, Griefswald and Leipzig. I make exceptions from time to time as I try and out guess what QBall is going to do.

6. Early in 44 I disbanded most of my NFs to add pilots to my day fighters. I realize now that was a mistake, but I don't think it should have effected my overall numbers.

All advice is welcome.

[LiquidSky]

I use training quite a bit. Training is not as bad as it used to be. And untrained pilots in 1943 are not as bad as untrained pilots in 1944.

The night fighter squadrons are my training units. I make sure they have contact with the enemy as when they fight, they don't lose lots of pilots. If you decide to switch to daylight bombing, then they just sit and train.

I never ever let a trained pilot go into a non FB squadron.

I do a lot of disbanding. When I can. Lately I've been disbanding the Ost battalions, and I will disband all my motorized/panzer brigades. I also have all my units on refit so they are as full as they can be, and my pools are rather empty. I ran out of manpower a while ago.

My Italians might have been short lived but I did use them very aggressively in Sicily and Sardinia until they popped. I lost a bunch at sea as well when one of your Naval units moved up to one of the ports and sunk them which kind of annoyed me...but all that would show up as axis losses.


I used to hate training, but now I love it:

Air Execution Log
_____________________________________________________________________

__________ Night 1 _________
__________ Day 1 _________
Naval patrol Axis planes destroyed: 0. Allied intercepts: 0
Naval patrol Allied planes destroyed: 1. Axis intercepts: 6
*** Air Maintenance Phase. Day 0 ***

53 training missions were flown
12 pilot crews improved their skills
0 pilot crews were lost
0 pilot crews were wounded
51 tons of fuel and 2 tons of ammo were used
11 aircraft were damaged flying training missions
0 aircraft were destroyed flying training missions

Axis planes repaired: 7
Allied planes repaired: 25
Planes in repair with 0 damage: 27
USA: 1 new pilot(s) arrived. Left in pool 8112.
Britain: 1 new pilot(s) arrived. Left in pool 4033.
__________ Night 2 _________
__________ Day 2 _________
Naval patrol Axis planes destroyed: 0. Allied intercepts: 0
Naval patrol Allied planes destroyed: 0. Axis intercepts: 3
*** Air Maintenance Phase. Day 1 ***

53 training missions were flown
14 pilot crews improved their skills
0 pilot crews were lost
4 pilot crews were wounded
51 tons of fuel and 2 tons of ammo were used
6 aircraft were damaged flying training missions
4 aircraft were destroyed flying training missions

Axis planes repaired: 10
Allied planes repaired: 27
Planes in repair with 0 damage: 31
Britain: 2 new pilot(s) arrived. Left in pool 4031.
Canada: 1 new pilot(s) arrived. Left in pool 158.
__________ Night 3 _________
__________ Day 3 _________
Naval patrol Axis planes destroyed: 0. Allied intercepts: 0
Naval patrol Allied planes destroyed: 1. Axis intercepts: 1
*** Air Maintenance Phase. Day 2 ***

49 training missions were flown
12 pilot crews improved their skills
0 pilot crews were lost
0 pilot crews were wounded
46 tons of fuel and 2 tons of ammo were used
10 aircraft were damaged flying training missions
0 aircraft were destroyed flying training missions

Axis planes repaired: 3
Allied planes repaired: 19
Planes in repair with 0 damage: 23
__________ Night 4 _________
__________ Day 4 _________
Naval patrol Axis planes destroyed: 0. Allied intercepts: 0
Naval patrol Allied planes destroyed: 0. Axis intercepts: 1
*** Air Maintenance Phase. Day 3 ***

48 training missions were flown
13 pilot crews improved their skills
0 pilot crews were lost
2 pilot crews were wounded
44 tons of fuel and 2 tons of ammo were used
10 aircraft were damaged flying training missions
4 aircraft were destroyed flying training missions

Axis planes repaired: 5
Allied planes repaired: 19
Planes in repair with 0 damage: 22
__________ Night 5 _________
__________ Day 5 _________
Naval patrol Axis planes destroyed: 0. Allied intercepts: 0
Naval patrol Allied planes destroyed: 0. Axis intercepts: 0
*** Air Maintenance Phase. Day 4 ***

40 training missions were flown
15 pilot crews improved their skills
0 pilot crews were lost
0 pilot crews were wounded
36 tons of fuel and 1 tons of ammo were used
3 aircraft were damaged flying training missions
0 aircraft were destroyed flying training missions

Axis planes repaired: 6
Allied planes repaired: 11
Planes in repair with 0 damage: 14
__________ Night 6 _________
__________ Day 6 _________
Naval patrol Axis planes destroyed: 0. Allied intercepts: 0
Naval patrol Allied planes destroyed: 0. Axis intercepts: 0
*** Air Maintenance Phase. Day 5 ***

37 training missions were flown
7 pilot crews improved their skills
0 pilot crews were lost
2 pilot crews were wounded
31 tons of fuel and 1 tons of ammo were used
6 aircraft were damaged flying training missions
3 aircraft were destroyed flying training missions

Axis planes repaired: 4
Allied planes repaired: 12
Planes in repair with 0 damage: 12
USA: 1 new pilot(s) arrived. Left in pool 8111.
__________ Night 7 _________
__________ Day 7 _________
Naval patrol Axis planes destroyed: 0. Allied intercepts: 0
Naval patrol Allied planes destroyed: 0. Axis intercepts: 0
*** Air Maintenance Phase. Day 6 ***

20 training missions were flown
4 pilot crews improved their skills
0 pilot crews were lost
0 pilot crews were wounded
14 tons of fuel and 0 tons of ammo were used
4 aircraft were damaged flying training missions
0 aircraft were destroyed flying training missions

Axis planes repaired: 3
Allied planes repaired: 19
Planes in repair with 0 damage: 16
Britain: 2 new pilot(s) arrived. Left in pool 4029.

As you can see, I didn't lose a pilot only a small number of planes were destroyed for over 70 pilots gaining skill.

[LiquidSky]

Hmm...didn't seem to like the formatting....

Another difference I do is I fill my bomber (non FB) squadrons with untrained pilots so they are all essentially at full strength...although when I fly them, a lot of them are going to die since I don't bother training them.


The only real damage I have is my Luftwaffe Reich with all the FB squadrons is about 2/3rds strong.

Here is what one of my NF squadrons looks like for pilots. Notice that at the bottom end, the untrained guys are in the 40's now.

[Harrybanana]

Thanks LS. I never let a trained pilot go into a non F or FB squadron either. So if I understand you correctly you do the same settings as me, but you set your NFs to take untrained pilots (whereas I only filled them with trained pilots) and let them train up. But how does training your NF pilots help you with your Day Fighters? Other than disbanding the NF Air groups is there a way to transfer pilots from NF air groups to regular/day FB air groups? I didn't realize that you were using untrained pilots in your LB and other air groups. Guess that at least partly explains why you have so much more aircraft than me.

In addition to the 4 HQs I mentioned I have also disbanded most of my Ost battalions. And I have also had most of my units refitting for most of the game. In particular I have had all of my Armour and mechanized units refitting the whole game. My manpower pool was also exhausted several turns ago. So much so that last turn I didn't even have the 1000 manpower required to build fortification zones (well not until I disbanded some more Ost battalions anyway). So I still don't understand why you have so many more men and tanks than me. But maybe one of those unsolvable mysteries.

If your FB squadrons are 2/3rds strong than I think you are doing better than me. I will check my next turn.

[LiquidSky]

I do disband my NF squadrons...but I do it sparingly. I did put untrained pilots into my FB squadrons in 1943 before the bad weather, since I knew I would have some snow turns for them to gain exp....you caught some of them on that first turn (in 1944) when I took 300 losses in aircombat.

The Luftwaffe will come to a sticky end. All I can do is try to prolong the agony for as long as possible.

[Q-Ball]

Interesting, I haven't tried training with the new changes. Thanks for sharing!

That doesn't solve the quality problem of course; the LW declines in quality from the opening gun, since Allied replacement pilots are much better than LW. Another factor is Allied aircraft get better, while LW aircraft are mostly the same types with very minor upgrades. The result is better and better Allied kill ratios. Is that what you are seeing?

[LiquidSky]

Yes, I notice a tipping point..although it is usually self-inflicted when I decide to really contest the allied landings with airpower.

At that point the Luftwaffe loses about half-three quarters of its airforce over a few turns.

Until then I try and keep it somewhat intact until the turn the gruppes all get bigger...then I fill them with quality pilots from the NF squadrons, let them fill up with the excess machines and then fight until they are dead.

Here is the next turn with that same squadron I showed above. You can see that the pilots are quickly heading for 50 in exp. P. Shumacher even got a kill and gained an exp from 72 to 73. U.Auer at the bottom went from 43 to 46.




EDIT: I figured out why sometimes I cannot assign pilots. Pilots require manpower. With manpower at around 0 every turn, I was starting to wonder why I couldn't assign untrained pilots anymore.

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Interesting, I haven't tried training with the new changes. Thanks for sharing!

That doesn't solve the quality problem of course; the LW declines in quality from the opening gun, since Allied replacement pilots are much better than LW. Another factor is Allied aircraft get better, while LW aircraft are mostly the same types with very minor upgrades. The result is better and better Allied kill ratios. Is that what you are seeing?

I am seeing good Allied kill ratios the turn after LS fills out his FB Groups with untrained pilots; as in below. But next turn when I face just his Aces it will be a different story.

[whoofe]

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky

I use training quite a bit. Training is not as bad as it used to be. And untrained pilots in 1943 are not as bad as untrained pilots in 1944.

The night fighter squadrons are my training units. I make sure they have contact with the enemy as when they fight, they don't lose lots of pilots. If you decide to switch to daylight bombing, then they just sit and train.

I never ever let a trained pilot go into a non FB squadron.

I do a lot of disbanding. When I can. Lately I've been disbanding the Ost battalions, and I will disband all my motorized/panzer brigades. I also have all my units on refit so they are as full as they can be, and my pools are rather empty. I ran out of manpower a while ago.

My Italians might have been short lived but I did use them very aggressively in Sicily and Sardinia until they popped. I lost a bunch at sea as well when one of your Naval units moved up to one of the ports and sunk them which kind of annoyed me...but all that would show up as axis losses.


I used to hate training, but now I love it:


As you can see, I didn't lose a pilot only a small number of planes were destroyed for over 70 pilots gaining skill.

great info! I had avoided training completely because it was so worthless in the original versions of the game

[Harrybanana]

This is a more typical turn of air losses. Compare this to our game QBall and you will see that Liquid Sky truly is a master of getting the most out of the Luftwaffe (well that and I really don't know what I am doing). And he does not just pull his FBs back to defend the homeland. Many of these battles were fought over French and Belgian skies where LS is contesting, quite successfully in my opinion, my campaign of bombing rail yards and units. Indeed this turn 8th AF took relatively minor losses. On the other hand 15th Air force was mauled very badly. Also many of these losses were to my night bombing campaign by Bomber Command. Compare my NF losses to his.

[LiquidSky]

Here is the I./NJG.7 squadron that I was showing earlier. As you can see, it is training nicely.
Whenever I lose a pilot, I put an untrained guy in the plane....but NF squadrons don't lose pilots very often.

I only have three pilots that need the auto training (since I have it set at train below 50%)

U. Auer who I think started at 40% in the beginning is now finished his training and is at 50%

EDIT: I should add that I am rapidly running out of NF squadrons though. I am down to about a quarter.

[LiquidSky]

I'd like to welcome B. Batz to Uncle Hermann's School of Gifted Pilots.

He passed the preliminary examination which proved he has most of his fingers and toes.

In mere weeks we can turn that 34 exp into a girl catching 50 by just following one easy lesson: Pointy end forward!

Remember our motto: We will live forever or die trying.

[Harrybanana]

Another similarity between the 2 games is that QBall in his game against me and me in my game against LiqudSky chose the exact same invasion beaches in Brittany. The only difference is that QBall invaded 5 hexes and I only invaded 4. Great minds truly do think alike.

[LiquidSky]

The training continues with the allied bombing campaign put on hold while they play hunt the Luftwaffe bomber.

Our new recruit B. Batz has discovered which end of the plane is the pointy end, and advances his exp to 35.

Not to be undone, D. Buhligen follows with a one point gain as well.

Show Off S. Krogel though gains 2 points and does a fly by of the north tower. No Shnitzel for you.

Finally, N. Zinzendorf graduates to full blown pilot by hitting 50 from 49.

Due to the recent inactivity in the Strat bombing campaign...and the sudden influx of untrained pilots....our two new recruits join us with 65 exp each.



EDIT: But sadly, we lost V. Sturm and his 69 exp.

That's the trouble with training. You could lose one guy who puts the whole average exp back a lot.

[Harrybanana]

Continuing the Game Comparison, below are the Maps of the Front lines in France and Italy as of Turn 50 (June 10 ,1944). My game with QBall (with me as the Germans) is on the left and my game with LiquidSky (with me as the Allies) is on the right. Great minds must think alike because in both games the Allies not only chose to invade Brittany, but almost the identical beaches as well. Since this Turn 50 QBall has launched his second invasion. The biggest difference is in Italy where in my game with QBall I still held Rome as of T50.