Does supply really matter or oes it only matter for the Allies?

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

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spence
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Does supply really matter or oes it only matter for the Allies?

Post by spence »

A couple of months ago (game time) a Japanese spearhead composed of one Japanese Brigade and several Chinese Allied units penetrated Chinese (Allied) lines an shock attacked the Chinese units in Nanning. After suffering a tremendous defeat at 1 to 5 odds and 3000 casualties or so they were surrounded by Chinese Allied units. Over the course of the last few months they've been subjected by multiple attacks by those Chinese Allied units at odds of up to around 25 to 1. In every case they have inflicted more casualties on the Chinese than they themselves have suffered. Because the Chinese are so strapped for supplies I let them spend a couple of turns accumulating supplies. Nevertheless the Chinese suffered more casualties on their next attack (although again around 20 to 1). What is upsetting is that they the Japanese units appeared to regain strength faster than the Chinese even though the Chinese have a supply line and the Japanese do not. So what gives?

It is especially notable that the Regional Chinese Units regained AV or roughly 30 or so each in a city controlled by the Allied government. Somehow seems a bit unlikely. In act it seems unlikely that any regional Japanese-Allied unit larger than a squad ever offered the same death or victory resistance that these guys seem to show.

If supply doesn;t really matter for Japanese units (Allied units certainly collapse fast enough without bullets and beans) then the tactics and strategy that an Allied Player employs against them are effected. What gives?
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RE: Does supply really matter or oes it only matter for the Allies?

Post by Big B »

I'm going to guess that you are experiencing an AI phenomenon, perhaps AI supply bonuses?
Flicker
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RE: Does supply really matter or oes it only matter for the Allies?

Post by Flicker »

Where is your artillery?
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PaxMondo
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RE: Does supply really matter or oes it only matter for the Allies?

Post by PaxMondo »

You are overlooking a number of variables; AV is often the least accurate indicator for combat. EXP, Morale, Leadership .... Chinese troops are generally VERY poor in these three whereas early IJ troops tend to be quite good. Terrain is also a major factor ... finally as noted above firepower has a great deal to do with combat outcomes, again Chinese troops are quite low in that.

The flip side occurs later in the war with IJ troops against US army troops ... US firepower is unbelievable and almost unstoppable.
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Yaab
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RE: Does supply really matter or oes it only matter for the Allies?

Post by Yaab »

It is understandable that the Japs regained AV in this istuation. When they suffered their first defeat they probbaly lost some of their combat squads and suffered many combat squads disablements, but their support squads didn't take any hit. After the defeat, the number of support squads was gretaer then the number of combat squads, and thus the Japanese unit started self-healing faster.

It is the same with the Chinese units - look at your defeated Chinese units and you will see their organic support number is in green on the unit screen, meaning the unit has more support squads then it needs.

Defeats have their uses.
GetAssista
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RE: Does supply really matter or oes it only matter for the Allies?

Post by GetAssista »

Map screenshot with hex sides highlighted will help as well as the last combat report.
Is AI on Very Hard?
On Hard I had no problems mopping up Allied armored divs in good defensive terrain with my regular infantry as soon as them were out of supply. Allies also have no problems eliminating Japanese pockets later in the game. With awful chinese firepower I imagine half of them are running up toward fortified Jap positions carrying sabers and getting killed in HtH combat
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Where is your artillery?
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RE: Does supply really matter or oes it only matter for the Allies?

Post by btd64 »

Remember that disabled squads will come back quicker with the support number higher and that adds to the AV. It's destroyed enemy squads you want to see. I don't pay much attention to disabled squads. It's the destroyed ones I look for....GP
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RE: Does supply really matter or oes it only matter for the Allies?

Post by crsutton »

If you are playing a human opponent the Japanese will run out of supply and you will eventually prevail. Be advised that the Japanese player has a fair number of transports and can fly supply into the hex. You can test this by putting CAP over the hex.

If you are playing the AI then I have not go a clue. Pax Mondo is correct in that the Chinese-especially if the units have lost a fight or two are almost totally lacking in devices such as artillery and MGs. combine that with weak squads, no inherent AT values, poor morale and leadership and they are just going to get kicked around if used offensively. You just have to take the losses and keep grinding. Chinese squads don't cost much in VP and you will never run out of squads.
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Alpha77
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RE: Does supply really matter or oes it only matter for the Allies?

Post by Alpha77 »

I have severall Chinese units isolated for months now and still they have 200-300 AVs one even has 400. (vs. AI so perhaps bonus)
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RE: Does supply really matter or oes it only matter for the Allies?

Post by btd64 »

Post a screen shot. If the units are in a city that has man power and industry, that could explain it. But post a pic or two....GP
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RE: Does supply really matter or oes it only matter for the Allies?

Post by Alpha77 »

ORIGINAL: General Patton

Post a screen shot. If the units are in a city that has man power and industry, that could explain it. But post a pic or two....GP

Nope its in the countryside. I play Japan vs. Allied AI in "babes" mod. Guess it may be a Chinese coded thing as they are assumed to be very hardy men and can live "off the country" (my guess). However if you isolate an own unit on some island it will also only veryyyy slowly disable things and it takes a while that someone actually dies of starvation it seems. Have the game not here so no screen. But there is not much to see anyway. On my side some troops fixing them on their side the usual display. I opened the Ai turn and found they are all at supply "ZERO"... well it is no biggy cause it may be even better to let them just sit there (guess of destroyed some will re-spawn)
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RE: Does supply really matter or oes it only matter for the Allies?

Post by BBfanboy »

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

ORIGINAL: General Patton

Post a screen shot. If the units are in a city that has man power and industry, that could explain it. But post a pic or two....GP

Nope its in the countryside. I play Japan vs. Allied AI in "babes" mod. Guess it may be a Chinese coded thing as they are assumed to be very hardy men and can live "off the country" (my guess). However if you isolate an own unit on some island it will also only veryyyy slowly disable things and it takes a while that someone actually dies of starvation it seems. Have the game not here so no screen. But there is not much to see anyway. On my side some troops fixing them on their side the usual display. I opened the Ai turn and found they are all at supply "ZERO"... well it is no biggy cause it may be even better to let them just sit there (guess of destroyed some will re-spawn)
It is unclear if your concept of "isolated" is the same as mine - which would require the unit to be totally surrounded by enemy troops (not just hexside control lost to the enemy, but enemy in situ on that hex side). It is common in China for troops out in no-man's land to get better supply than those in cities. The rationale has something to do with the number of possible supply paths that can lead to the unit out in a salient.

The AV # of the unit does not really tell you what is going on with the unit. The AV reflects the number of squads and assault devices present, but does not show their actual fighting power. If supply in the unit is "0", the AV will be penalized down to 25% of its raw value. There may be other downward adjustments for morale/fatigue/disruption too.
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RE: Does supply really matter or oes it only matter for the Allies?

Post by Alpha77 »

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

ORIGINAL: General Patton

Post a screen shot. If the units are in a city that has man power and industry, that could explain it. But post a pic or two....GP

Nope its in the countryside. I play Japan vs. Allied AI in "babes" mod. Guess it may be a Chinese coded thing as they are assumed to be very hardy men and can live "off the country" (my guess). However if you isolate an own unit on some island it will also only veryyyy slowly disable things and it takes a while that someone actually dies of starvation it seems. Have the game not here so no screen. But there is not much to see anyway. On my side some troops fixing them on their side the usual display. I opened the Ai turn and found they are all at supply "ZERO"... well it is no biggy cause it may be even better to let them just sit there (guess of destroyed some will re-spawn)
It is unclear if your concept of "isolated" is the same as mine - which would require the unit to be totally surrounded by enemy troops (not just hexside control lost to the enemy, but enemy in situ on that hex side). It is common in China for troops out in no-man's land to get better supply than those in cities. The rationale has something to do with the number of possible supply paths that can lead to the unit out in a salient.

The AV # of the unit does not really tell you what is going on with the unit. The AV reflects the number of squads and assault devices present, but does not show their actual fighting power. If supply in the unit is "0", the AV will be penalized down to 25% of its raw value. There may be other downward adjustments for morale/fatigue/disruption too.

Interesting info thanks. Well I just checked the troops in question and their AV has fallen now. I took most of China also Chungking. So it is possible with your explanation that they indeed got some supply trickles before. But now there is no suppy source for them left...
GetAssista
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RE: Does supply really matter or oes it only matter for the Allies?

Post by GetAssista »

AI LCUs die off on their own very-very slowly if out of supply and you are playing on Hard+. Chinese corps can last several years on 0 supply if not engaged. I have a remnant of Dutch BF 10 support squads sitting in Jap Java for 6 months w/o supply and they lost 1 squad to disablements.
Don't know if this also happens in Normal, hardly anyone plays it anyway.
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RE: Does supply really matter or oes it only matter for the Allies?

Post by Alpha77 »

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

AI LCUs die off on their own very-very slowly if out of supply and you are playing on Hard+. Chinese corps can last several years on 0 supply if not engaged. I have a remnant of Dutch BF 10 support squads sitting in Jap Java for 6 months w/o supply and they lost 1 squad to disablements.
Don't know if this also happens in Normal, hardly anyone plays it anyway.


I believe I play "normal" cause I know that at "hard" you cannot starve islands. So no historic moves. But seems not different much - also from Island without supply the AI can fly still patrol missions - but not attack ones (so far my experience)...
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RE: Does supply really matter or oes it only matter for the Allies?

Post by BBfanboy »

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

AI LCUs die off on their own very-very slowly if out of supply and you are playing on Hard+. Chinese corps can last several years on 0 supply if not engaged. I have a remnant of Dutch BF 10 support squads sitting in Jap Java for 6 months w/o supply and they lost 1 squad to disablements.
Don't know if this also happens in Normal, hardly anyone plays it anyway.


I believe I play "normal" cause I know that at "hard" you cannot starve islands. So no historic moves. But seems not different much - also from Island without supply the AI can fly still patrol missions - but not attack ones (so far my experience)...
I believe the setting to prevent starvation of AI troops is "Very Hard".
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
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Jim D Burns
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RE: Does supply really matter or oes it only matter for the Allies?

Post by Jim D Burns »

ORIGINAL: spence
What gives?

Most Chinese battles are fought with the -supply modifier in effect for the Chinese due to poor supply levels. So if you've managed to isolate the Japanese and cut their supply all you've done is even the playing field supply wise, so you both have the -supply mod in effect.

Japanese troops do not surrender like allied troops, you have to destroy them outright. So they still have all their other advantages going for them. High morale, low fatigue, good disablement recovery and excellent leadership. So don't expect to ever be able to fight offensively vs. the Japanese. Your best move is to sit still and dig in, let him attack you.

The only time I'd ever advocate attacking is if you greatly outnumber him in the range of 10-1 or better. Japanese firepower will devastate your attacking equipment items in the fire phase, so you need massive numbers to have any hope of having enough items survive the fire phase to get to close with the enemy and do good damage in the assault phase.

You are still going to take massive losses, but if your numbers are high enough the experience your units gain in assault battles may offset the losses you take by making your armies more proficient over time. But for the most part China is a defensive battle and the Chinese should rarely if ever launch assaults unless they are backed up by their dedicated artillery or some allied firepower.

Jim


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