A Grey Steppe Eagle (loki100 vs Vigabrand)

Post descriptions of your brilliant victories and unfortunate defeats here.

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loki100
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RE: Plans for the winter offensive

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: jwolf
recent experience in this game makes me cautious.

Certainly a legitimate concern as the South in general is very good pocket territory. Easy for the hunter to become the hunted -- but that will work both ways.

I think it helps that I feel that time is on my side (at the moment), so less feeling that I need to really achieve more than is feasible at this stage. But the temptation to cut loose is ongoing [;)]
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Turn 131: 16 – 22 December 1943

Post by loki100 »

Turn 131: 16 – 22 December 1943

Image
(improvised river crossing south of Kiev)

On the morning of 16 December, the long lull in the war in the Ukraine was shattered. Even before the first Soviet guns roared into life, partisans blew key bridges and rail sections, isolating some sections of the front.

The Suvorov Offensive

The 16th saw the Soviet formations to the south of Kiev in action. The Germans had abandoned Dnepropetrovsk the previous week and elements of Trans-Caucasus Front struck at their retreating units, drawing their reserves away from the main threat.

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The main attack saw 3 Fronts (1 Ukrainian, North-Caucasus and 4 Ukrainian) in action.

The infantry formations of 1 Ukrainian stormed Cherkassy catching the Germans by surprise. Initial reports confirmed the earlier guess that there were no German mobile reserves on this sector.

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With four tank armies available (1,2, 4 and 6), and no German mobile units behind Cherkassy, the Front quickly expanded its bridgehead. Only a desperate defensive victory by the battered divisions of XXXIV Corps actually prevented the Soviets breaking through the final German defensive positions.

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Image
(opening attack of 1 Tank Army)

Even so, 1 Ukrainian had carved out a grip on the west bank that was 40 miles from north to south and up to 30 miles west of the river.

To the south, North Caucasus Front also made rapid progress. 41 and 50 Armies forced the river at Chigirin and Bagramyan's 3 Guard Army quickly broadened the bridgehead. Operating with 41 Army it was able to encircle elements of the German XXXXIX Corps and force them to fall back in disorder.

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By the end of the week, the two fronts joined up on the west bank, given the Red Army control of a 60 mile long stretch of the river.

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Finally 4 Ukrainian captured high ground over the river and threatened the rear of the axis units retreating in the Dneipr bend.

The original plan had called for 3 Ukrainian to be held back till the Germans had committed their reserves. However, the success of the partisan campaign in the region, and clear evidence that the Germans had no mobile reserves north of Cherkassy, led Stavka to order the front to attack on the 17th.

Image
(partisan sabotage mission in the Chernobyl region)

Unlike further south, the German defence was weak enough that 4 and 5 Shock Armies created a 30 mile breach in their front line in the opening hours.

With that, 3 and 5 Tank Armies and the cavalry-mechanised group of 40 Army were able to exploit the confusion. By the end of the week, Soviet spearheads had reached the Pripyet around Chernobyl. The biggest obstacle was not German resistance but the poor roads and deep woods of this region.

Image

The Kutuzov Offensive

North of the Pripyet, there was no immediate difference between the previous fighting east of Minsk and the new Soviet offensive. Western and 2 Baltic Fronts made some gains while 1 Baltic continued to pin down the bulk of the German armoured formations. The Dauga remained unfrozen, limiting the scope to broaden the offensive.

Now that the fighting was across the entire front from Dnepropetrovsk to the Dvina, losses escalated. The Axis lost 39,000 men (17,000 kia), 75 tanks and 225 planes for Soviet losses of 53,000 men (31,000 kia), 400 tanks and 210 planes.
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gingerbread
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RE: Turn 131: 16 – 22 December 1943

Post by gingerbread »

In your rail screen shot, I noticed that the hex next to Cherkassy is shown as repaired but unusable. How did you manage to repair it? I have assumed that repairs in ZOC are prohibited. By how I mean which of auto repair from an HQ or with the rail repair unit during movement.
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loki100
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RE: Turn 131: 16 – 22 December 1943

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: gingerbread

In your rail screen shot, I noticed that the hex next to Cherkassy is shown as repaired but unusable. How did you manage to repair it? I have assumed that repairs in ZOC are prohibited. By how I mean which of auto repair from an HQ or with the rail repair unit during movement.

I'm noticing quite a lot of odd repair events. I think you could always repair a hex in a zoc (using the on-map repair units) but what happens quite a lot is auto repair 'jumps' a hex to repair something it shouldn't. I think it is interpreting 'next to' as adjacent rather than as being linked by a functioning rail line.
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RE: Turn 131: 16 – 22 December 1943

Post by jwolf »

1.99, that hurts ...
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morvael
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RE: Turn 131: 16 – 22 December 1943

Post by morvael »

ORIGINAL: gingerbread

In your rail screen shot, I noticed that the hex next to Cherkassy is shown as repaired but unusable. How did you manage to repair it? I have assumed that repairs in ZOC are prohibited. By how I mean which of auto repair from an HQ or with the rail repair unit during movement.

This can be a hex which was repaired and then came into contact with enemy ZOC but was protected by own ZOC so it wasn't captured and destroyed. Recently I had 40+ rail hexes cut of in this way by Soviet tank brigade in my PBEM game, when I pushed them back the rail came online.
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gingerbread
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RE: Turn 131: 16 – 22 December 1943

Post by gingerbread »

ORIGINAL: morvael

ORIGINAL: gingerbread

In your rail screen shot, I noticed that the hex next to Cherkassy is shown as repaired but unusable. How did you manage to repair it? I have assumed that repairs in ZOC are prohibited. By how I mean which of auto repair from an HQ or with the rail repair unit during movement.

This can be a hex which was repaired and then came into contact with enemy ZOC but was protected by own ZOC so it wasn't captured and destroyed. Recently I had 40+ rail hexes cut of in this way by Soviet tank brigade in my PBEM game, when I pushed them back the rail came online.
Well, it could be such a hex but that would mean that Vigabrand left Cherkassy ungarrisoned, not very likely. This unlikeliness is why I asked in the first place.

The sometimes not all trustworthy manual states explicitly that auto repair will not happen adjacent to enemy units but makes no mention of ZOC.
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RE: Turn 131: 16 – 22 December 1943

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: jwolf

1.99, that hurts ...

yep, I pushed them back with a follow up attack but I could have had the MP to reach and displace his airbase otherwise
ORIGINAL: gingerbread
ORIGINAL: morvael

ORIGINAL: gingerbread

In your rail screen shot, I noticed that the hex next to Cherkassy is shown as repaired but unusable. How did you manage to repair it? I have assumed that repairs in ZOC are prohibited. By how I mean which of auto repair from an HQ or with the rail repair unit during movement.

This can be a hex which was repaired and then came into contact with enemy ZOC but was protected by own ZOC so it wasn't captured and destroyed. Recently I had 40+ rail hexes cut of in this way by Soviet tank brigade in my PBEM game, when I pushed them back the rail came online.
Well, it could be such a hex but that would mean that Vigabrand left Cherkassy ungarrisoned, not very likely. This unlikeliness is why I asked in the first place.

The sometimes not all trustworthy manual states explicitly that auto repair will not happen adjacent to enemy units but makes no mention of ZOC.

no that hex was definitely repaired using one of the manual rail repair units - I've done this in a few places where I was pretty sure I was going to use the next hex as an obvious target. The auto repair can't happen adjacent to an enemy unit but is certainly jumping to non-connected (but adjacent) hexes
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loki100
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Turn 132: 23-29 December 1943

Post by loki100 »

Turn 132: 23-29 December 1943

Both north and south of the Pripyet, the Germans only managed very localised offensives. At the same time the partisan assault on their rail net continued. If this failed to isolate any sector, the continuous disruption made it hard for them to shift formations to meet the emerging, multiple, threats being created by the Soviet offensive.

Operation Kutuzov

The fighting east of Minsk slowly developed its own dynamics. The German defences facing 1 Baltic Front were mostly too strong for the Soviets to make any progress. However, on the flanks facing 2 Baltic and Western Fronts they were able to create strong points but the Soviet commanders were able to shift the focus of their attacks to find the weak spots.

In the north, 2 Baltic Front stormed the rail junction of Glubokoe. While no longer of particular value to the Germans, to Stavka this was the first time that Red Army troops had crossed the old 1939 Soviet border.

Image

Further south, elements of 1 Baltic and Western Front co-operated in eliminating the last German toehold on the Berezina. The renamed 5 Guards Army (previously the 31 Army) completed this sequence of attacks, leaving the German units risking encirclement.

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Image
(IS-2 of 5 Guards Army moving up to the front)

In turn this allowed Western Front to renew its attempt to unhinge the German line to the south of Minsk. In heavy fighting, the cavalry-mechanised formation of 4 Army drove back 41 Panzer Corps.

Image
at3

For the moment, Stavka was content that the offensive was making some gains and, more importantly, pinning down substantial German armoured formations. Near Riga, Volkhov Front deployed to its assault positions but was not committed to action.

Image


Operation Suvorov

To the north of Kiev, 3 Ukrainian continued to make rapid progress. 40 Army crossed the Pripyet and then the Tank Armies swung south. The Shock Armies and Stavka artillery reserve followed as quickly as they could while elements of Bielorussian Front provided flank protection.

Image

Image
(ISU-152 near Chernobyl)

To the south of Kiev, Stavka had to decide how to exploit the initial gains. Combined, 1 Ukrainian and North-Caucasus Fronts deployed 5 Tank and 3 Cavalry-Mechanised Armies. One option was to split these up with North-Caucasus trying to cut off the axis units falling back from the Dneipr bend while 1 Ukrainian struck north towards Kiev.

At the moment, Soviet reconnaissance suggested that all the German mobile units in the Ukraine were to the south of Cherkassy.

As a result the Soviet front commanders were ordered to redeploy. The rifle formations of 4 Ukrainian and North-Caucasus Fronts were to screen the German deployments to the south of the Cherkassy while the mobile formations swung north to try and join up with 3 Ukrainian Front.

The opening blow was struck by 34 and 50 Armies as they expanded the bridgehead and forced the Germans north of the Ros. By 25 December, the armoured formations of 1 Ukrainian Front had broken through the German lines to the south of Kiev.

Image

Image

Image

Both sides took heavy losses. The Germans lost 40,000 men (16,000 kia), 105 tanks and 165 planes. The Soviets lost 53,000 men (28,000 kia) and 240 planes. However, now that the tank armies had out-run their infantry support, Soviet tank losses escalated to 900.
jwolf
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RE: Turn 132: 23-29 December 1943

Post by jwolf »

I'd be a little nervous driving a tank across that patched up bridge ...

Are you focusing heavily on the Pripyat region during the frozen season, that is on the theory you can take ground now that the Germans won't be able to threaten once the terrain reverts to swamps?

The region south of Kiev looks to be shaping up into a serious battlefield. I wonder if the Germans are preparing a massive counterattack there.
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loki100
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RE: Turn 132: 23-29 December 1943

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: jwolf

I'd be a little nervous driving a tank across that patched up bridge ...

Are you focusing heavily on the Pripyat region during the frozen season, that is on the theory you can take ground now that the Germans won't be able to threaten once the terrain reverts to swamps?

The region south of Kiev looks to be shaping up into a serious battlefield. I wonder if the Germans are preparing a massive counterattack there.

Wait till I get some pictures of Kravchenko's model of crossing rivers with T-34s [8D]

I did a lot of thinking during the long lull about which Front to use where. One option was to add 3 Ukr (the old SW Front) to 1 Ukr+N Cauc in the centre. That would have created a fist with about 80% of my armour and the 2 shock armies would have improved the impact of my rifle formations.

In the end, I was worried that it would be relatively easy to absorb and for the Germans to pull back around it.

So the options were to add it to the far south - advantage was the capacity to encircle the Axis units in the Dneipr bend but I would have had awful supply (even if I'd used all my RR repair units to help out).

In the end decided on going into and through the eastern Pripyet. In part its historically where the Soviets turned the Kiev defences and also an earlier AAR by Oshawatt (vs Stef78) where he used that route to deadly effect. The German line was very weak (it has to be somewhere), with the marshes frozen, movement is not that slow. If it works out you can actually get between the German army on the Dneipr and Germany - risky but it can really shake up the front.

In this sequence of fighting, I think vigabrand has lost the ability to deploy his Pzrs away from the infantry. Both in the Ukraine and at Minsk, he seems more pinned down than earlier - I presume this is due to the steady loss on NM. The result is he can't respond as flexibly as before as if he pulled that Pzr Army out from south of Chernigov to deal with my gains towards Kiev his infantry become very vulnerable.

This sequence seems to repeat a few times in the next set of turns, he can't quite free up the infantry from my advances and can't remove the Pzrs to a new location. But its very tense as I am all too aware of the potential to lose some rather valuable units (even with the .08 rules)

On my side I can line up my southern wing with stacks of 2-3 rifle corps, he can beat them and drive them back but its very hard for him to break through and threaten me with encirclement - though I am being very cautious about too much exploitation.
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Turn 133: 30 December 1943 – 5 January 1944

Post by loki100 »

Turn 133: 30 December 1943 – 5 January 1944

Operation Kutuzov

A sequence of German counter-attacks stalled the progress of 1 Baltic Front. However, to the north 2 Baltic Front continued to make steady gains as did Western Front as it outflanked the German defensive line.

Image

Finally, Volkhov Front joined in the offensive. Its main assault formations managed to capture a small bridgehead around Jekapils but encountered far stronger German defences than had been expected.

Image

Operation Suvorov

In the Ukraine, both wings of the Soviet offensive made steady gains. 3 Ukrainian Front handed over its eastern flank to elements of Bielorussian Front while its main assault formations tried to outflank the German defensive line. To the west, the partisans continued to attack German communication links.

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(Partisans ambushing German units in the Pripyet region)

By 4 January, lead elements of 3 Tank Army forced the Uzh threatening to encircle the German positions at Kiev.

Image

To the south, North-Caucasus Front concentrated on expanding the Soviet bridgehead at Cherkassy. While it was only able to make limited gains, it was pinning down the bulk of the German armoured formations in the Ukraine.

At the same time the armoured formations of 1 Ukrainian Front tried to split the German concentration to the south of Cherkassy from their formations at Kiev. Taking advantage of the weak German defences at Korsun, elements of 6 Tank Army [1] were able to strike deep into their rear. Soviet armour managed to overrun a number of Luftwaffe bases and cut the only direct rail connection between the two wings of Army Group South.

Image

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(Soviet armour near Kirovograd)

In turn, the other Tank Armies attacked north towards Kiev.

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Soviet losses escalated as Stavka demanded the liberation of Kiev and Minsk. The Germans lost 39,000 men (20,000 kia), 60 tanks and 120 planes for Soviet losses of 65,000 men (32,000 kia), 1180 tanks and 340 planes [2]. Soviet tank losses were heavy that some armoured formations now relied on lend lease tanks.

Image

[1] The units rebuilt after the Cherkassy disaster
[2] Thanks to the changes in the recent patch my tank losses go from 500 or so a week to over a 1000. I originally thought this was a one off but its pretty standard (and pretty annoying). The result is my tank/mechanised corps are steadily shrinking while the German Panzer divisions are getting stronger.
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RE: Turn 133: 30 December 1943 – 5 January 1944

Post by jwolf »

Those are staggering tank losses! [X(] I can't imagine you can maintain that pace very long. I'm out of touch with WITE so what has changed recently that has made your tank losses so great?
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loki100
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RE: Turn 133: 30 December 1943 – 5 January 1944

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: jwolf

Those are staggering tank losses! [X(] I can't imagine you can maintain that pace very long. I'm out of touch with WITE so what has changed recently that has made your tank losses so great?

the new patch has a rule designed to reduce German tank losses in 1941 - not sure why as I've never seen a debate on this issue or anybody raising it as a problem. The impact by this stage of the game is quite silly Soviet tank losses. I am going to run out of tanks in a few months while the German Pzr divisions grow ever larger.

I think its fair to say I am none too happy - not least I really fail to understand what problem this change is meant to be solving, or where the underlying lobbying for such a change came from.
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Turn 134: 6-12 January 1944

Post by loki100 »

Turn 134: 6-12 January 1944

Operation Kutuzov

In the north, the relatively static warfare and slow Soviet advance of recent months continued. On the Dauga, Volkhov Front became caught up in a fierce sequence of attack and counter-attack that saw Jekapils change hands twice but dashed any hopes that the Front would be able to break out into Lithuania.

Despite this, its attack had pulled away German reserves around Minsk. To compensate, the German formations facing Western Front fell back. In turn 2 Baltic Front made limited gains as Soviet pressure on Minsk steadily mounted.

Image

Image
(Sturmovik in support of 2 Baltic Front's offensive)


Operation Suvorov

If the war north of the Pripyet was essentially static, that in the Ukraine continued to be one of movement and the clash of armoured forces. 3 Ukrainian carried on trying to outflank the Germans at Kiev while its western flank was protected in part by a massive partisan assault on the German rail net.

The major engagement was the fighting between the exceptionally strong 1 SS Panzer Division and the Soviet tank armies. In the opening battle with 5 Tank Army, the Germans inflicted heavy losses but were forced back. In turn 3 Tank Army moved into the gap torn in the German lines and forced the SS formation to retreat again. Despite this relentless pressure, the Germans were able to retreat in good order.

Image
[1]

Around Chernigov, not surprisingly the Germans sealed off the Soviet raid at Kirovograd. However, to do so had dislocated their front lines and forced them to pull back the Romanian and Hungarian formations on the lower Dneipr [2].

In turn, Stavka shifted the focus of the two main fronts. North Caucasus pushed westwards but was mostly committed to guarding the southern flank of the Soviet salient. 1 Ukrainian swung its armour north in an attempt to join up with 3 Ukrainian.

rImage

Image
(Katyusha barrage in support of 1 Ukrainian Front)

OOB

Image

Losses were slightly lower than in previous weeks as most of the front north of the Pripyet saw little sustained fighting. The Germans lost 33,000 men (12,000 kia), 100 tanks and 120 planes. Soviet losses were 51,000 men (26,000 kia), 600 tanks and 260 planes.

[1] I realise this has been said, but the ratio of tank losses under the .08 patch are frankly ridiculous. In part Soviet tanks are now very easy to destroy but more importantly the German tanks have become immune to damage. Seems the only way to destroy German tanks is in a pocket, which is not easy when your opponent has around 12 Pzr divisions > 20 cv and 5 > 30.

[2] Again I'm basically trading off a sacrificial unit for gains. In the far south, the two sides are not even in contact, but the Axis have fallen back about 50 miles in the last few weeks. At some stage he'll reach the Romanian border and have to fight. For the moment, I'm content to take the gains and save trucks etc by not moving up units in a region where my rail heads are far behind the front.
Walloc
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RE: Turn 134: 6-12 January 1944

Post by Walloc »

ORIGINAL: loki100

[
[1] I realise this has been said, but the ratio of tank losses under the .08 patch are frankly ridiculous. In part Soviet tanks are now very easy to destroy but more importantly the German tanks have become immune to damage. Seems the only way to destroy German tanks is in a pocket, which is not easy when your opponent has around 12 Pzr divisions > 20 cv and 5 > 30.


I was just reading the AAR and saw the 2 combat messages before reading ur text. 5 lost afvs out of nearly 500 in 2 retreats.... yes yes, there is damaged too and some will be counted as destroyed in later phases, but this is the exactly when german tanks was lost. Hard to replicate history if u tried, as in the retreat to Dnieper in the fall of 1943 with these kinda numbers. Any how apparently u and other noticed too.

Kind regards,
Rasmus
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RE: Turn 134: 6-12 January 1944

Post by Wuffer »

walloc, believe me: axis' players trying very hard not to replicate history LOL
Viga achieved where nearly all fail - coming back with more guys than he has started. :-)

Great stuff, Loki, especially pushing forward allthough handicapped with the 'Panzer Problem', like it

A bright side: he can't really allow to counterattack your rifle corps, too expensive.
I wouldn't care to much about numbers, as long you are winning battle and could make progress.

btw, what's with his weak underbelly? maybe the allies could make some sparring partners for our inexperienced tankers?

(and of course you are right, regarding the battle results AND the aborted one, I forget the supply problem, mea culpa)
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RE: Turn 134: 6-12 January 1944

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: Walloc
ORIGINAL: loki100

[
[1] I realise this has been said, but the ratio of tank losses under the .08 patch are frankly ridiculous. In part Soviet tanks are now very easy to destroy but more importantly the German tanks have become immune to damage. Seems the only way to destroy German tanks is in a pocket, which is not easy when your opponent has around 12 Pzr divisions > 20 cv and 5 > 30.


I was just reading the AAR and saw the 2 combat messages before reading ur text. 5 lost afvs out of nearly 500 in 2 retreats.... yes yes, there is damaged too and some will be counted as destroyed in later phases, but this is the exactly when german tanks was lost. Hard to replicate history if u tried, as in the retreat to Dnieper in the fall of 1943 with these kinda numbers. Any how apparently u and other noticed too.

Kind regards,
Rasmus

good thing is Morvael accepts that this patch has given too much protection to the German Pzrs. Not sure when .09 is out but I hope I still have some tanks (even better just a few more than the Germans) when it comes out. Frustrating to watch my armoured formations become less useful as the Germans increase in power. On some sectors I've stopped using the tank/mech corps in an attempt to keep the losses under control
ORIGINAL: Wuffer

walloc, believe me: axis' players trying very hard not to replicate history LOL
Viga achieved where nearly all fail - coming back with more guys than he has started. :-)

Great stuff, Loki, especially pushing forward allthough handicapped with the 'Panzer Problem', like it

A bright side: he can't really allow to counterattack your rifle corps, too expensive.
I wouldn't care to much about numbers, as long you are winning battle and could make progress.

btw, what's with his weak underbelly? maybe the allies could make some sparring partners for our inexperienced tankers?

(and of course you are right, regarding the battle results AND the aborted one, I forget the supply problem, mea culpa)

I think vigabrand has prioritised the 'army in being' concept at several key stages. His reward may come as the front shortens which is why the looming (spoilers I know) 'chaos in the Ukraine' is going to be very important. If it ends my way, he'll have to spread out his front line more than he has so far, if it ends in his favour its going to be very slow going to Berlin.

The stronger rifle corps are really changing my operational approach now. Even in the open, stack a pair and that is near immovable. It is finally giving me flank security to risk pushing my mobile units just that bit further.

I am really tempted by those Romanians and Hungarians. Problem is I would have had to send 1 (at least) repair unit down there in the autumn. As it is my rail head east of the Dneipr hasn't even reached the gates of the Crimea and to the west is about 8 hexes behind the front.

However, I'll have them later [;)]. At the moment as I push out from Cherkassy that lot fall back 2-3 hexes. After this turn I even give up trying to chase them to make attacks. Its one of those instances where I think (and I could be wrong) that vigabrand's force preservation approach could backfire. By the end of the winter at this rate of retreat, he'll be back close to the Romanian border. At that stage I have no interest in harming too much of the Romanian army as it will be mine soon enough. So as with the Finns in their northern fortress (guarded by rifle divisions set to 70% ToE), I'm not totally sure what he is 'saving' them for.
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Turn 135: 13-19 January 1944

Post by loki100 »

Turn 135: 13-19 January 1944

Operation Kutuzov

Here the region around Jelgava again saw fierce fighting between Volkhov Front and the German 40 Panzer, 38 and 7 Infantry Corps. This time the Soviets managed to hold onto the town and 28 Army forced the Dauga to the west.

At Minsk, the strong German defences prevented 1 Baltic making any real progress but 2 Baltic and the Western Fronts made gains on the flanks.

Image

Operation Suvorov

In the northern Ukraine, the Germans finally reacted to the threat to Kiev. The bulk of their armoured formations redeployed from the southern flank of the Soviet forces west of Cherkassy to protect the direct route to Kiev and prevent the risk of 1 and 3 Ukrainian Fronts joining up.

Image
(Elements of 5 Tank Army)

However, they underestimated the extent that Stavka had ordered 3 Ukrainian to try and outflank their defensive line to the west. By the end of the week, elements of 3 and 5 Tank plus 40 Army had cut the Zhitomir to Kiev railline.

Image

To the south, 1 Ukrainian continued with the difficult manoeuvre of disengaging its formations on the southern edge of the Cherkassy salient. This flank was handed over to the North Caucasus Front. In turn 1 Ukrainian was now ordered to join up with 3 Ukrainian sealing the fate of the German units defending Kiev.

Hampered by the clogged roads and strong German resistance

Image

I Ukrainian made little real progress. However, by the end of the week most of its formations were moving to their new locations. The last rail link from Kiev to Vinnitsa was under under Soviet shellfire as the noose slowly closed.

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(Elements of I Ukrainian Front redeploying)

Image

On the lower Dneipr, the two armies effectively lost contact. The Romanian and Hungarian forces in that region retreated faster than the Soviets, lacking mobile assets, could follow up. As a result Stavka, ordered 4 Ukrainian Front to disengage and re-organise. Its relatively powerful infantry formations would be of more value either committed in the Cherkassy bulge or to protect the exposed flanks of 3 Ukrainian.

Trans-Caucasus and 2 Ukrainian carried on following up the Axis retreat. However, both now used a weak line of advanced divisions while their main combat power was held back in reserve.

Image
[1]

Losses for both sides remained heavy. The Germans lost 37,000 men (17,000 kia), 70 [2] tanks and 100 planes. Soviet losses were 67,000 men (29,000 kia, 11,000 prisoners), 1,100 tanks and 280 planes.



[1] In the south I am partly compensating for the problem of my weaker infantry formations (very few Gds Rifle Corps), and the artillery now lagging behind, by using far more planes. Even a few level bombers have been deployed to provide better reach where the front is now very open.
[2] I know I've made this point before, but ….
Walloc
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RE: Turn 134: 6-12 January 1944

Post by Walloc »

ORIGINAL: Wuffer

walloc, believe me: axis' players trying very hard not to replicate history LOL

Hi Wuffer,

I think ur missing my point. While the germans ofcourse wana avoid replicating history, just as the russian wants too or do even better.

Fact is if were to "replay" the fall of 43 within the game model as no german pz division was really surrounded and surrendered in the periode. So tanks/AFVs wasnt lost in that fashion.


The way they toke the casulties/losses has to be in the game model through retreats and combats and to a smaller extended just moving around. So if the game is to model that. Retreats and combat has to give a certain amount of losses/ratio.
2 retreats in the game engine is what in real life operation would be a rapid retreat. Forced or not. That in reality simply is a operation u can study from history and the germans lost generaly quite a bit in that.
Certainly they in general toke more than in more picthed battles.

Then the german migth wana avoid replicating that, but he clearly didnt succede as the russian player had his say in the matter and 2 retreats actually occured. So the german didnt avoid "replicating history", it happenned non the less of his wishes. Albit on a smaller scale these combats says something about replicating history as these are examples that would constitude part of what happened in the fall 43 campaign.
Therefor its interresting to see what the losses are. Clearly IMHO the losses are way to low.

If the germasn wants to avoid replicating history he has to find ways to avoid such results as retreats as it happened in the AAR.


That how ever isnt the question. It is when history replicates it self in the game, does the game/model seem to give casulties/losses that are comparible to similar historic situasions.

As we know losses werent comming through surrenders. So some of the best results u can hope for as russian player is german retreats of pz divs. Non the less the directly permanent loss ratio of AFV losses is 5 to 89 or roughly 18 to 1. Historicly the loss ratio was in the 2-2.5 range. If u here in some of the best possible condition of the engine aka retreat results gets 18-1. There is no way to get to 2-2.5-1, other than "never" using ur tanks as russians. The model doesnt seem much capable of reproducing history even if u purposfully tried.

That is the problem not that germans ofcourse want to avoid replicating history. It is what happens in the model, when it happens any how. That when history does replicate it self in the game, what does the model do then/what are the results.

Any how Morveal tweeked and it seems he will tweek back so lets see where it lands.

Kind regards,
Rasmus

P.S Sorry for the highjack Loki.
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