Chaos(SHC) vs Pelton-T131- Game Over-Soviet victory.
Moderators: Joel Billings, Sabre21
RE: T121
Mehring- maybe he is saving them for the shorter front at Poland?? no idea---I still have like 150-300 or so fighters per front though so my bombers arent exactly unprotected and like another 1k fighters just sitting in reserve all 60+ exp/morale. An since I cant disband airbases if I suddenly need more airsupport I have the option at this point to deploy my extra 1k fighters lol.
I cant say I have watched all the bombing super close as im doing alot of it...but it seems on weeks of heavy bombing Im losing about 50% losses to operational lol.....and the rest to flak apparently. On heavy weeks of action I was burning 300-500 planes a week but again 50% were op not actually shot down.....so apparently even mostly 70+ exp pilots really suck at flying their aircraft.
If he was actually contesting the air losses would have been even heavier....but again I cant remember any air attacks i saw him intercept on some of his extemely few counterattacks I saw some German fighters flying been about it.
I cant say I have watched all the bombing super close as im doing alot of it...but it seems on weeks of heavy bombing Im losing about 50% losses to operational lol.....and the rest to flak apparently. On heavy weeks of action I was burning 300-500 planes a week but again 50% were op not actually shot down.....so apparently even mostly 70+ exp pilots really suck at flying their aircraft.
If he was actually contesting the air losses would have been even heavier....but again I cant remember any air attacks i saw him intercept on some of his extemely few counterattacks I saw some German fighters flying been about it.
- sillyflower
- Posts: 3509
- Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:39 pm
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RE: T120-key events
ORIGINAL: chaos45
Silly- I think the bombings per turn is very powerful esp since currently I have barely seen any axis fighter inceptions at all. If I didnt have complete air superiority it might not be that bad....with complete air superiority though its looking pretty brutal...as I can bomb/attack push them back...bomb again...attack again....and after all that those units dont put much of a fight and can easily be pushed with Soviet hasty attacks. Its wears units down very quickly if you are able to apply 6+ 100 bomber air attacks to them in one turn...and if u get them to a third hex for 3 more....its very quickly makes a german division drop about half its CV in one turn combined with ground attacks.
This seems way OP even if you were using A10s - which I assume you are not unless you've found a great hack [:)]. Looks like a potential game wrecker to me even though you've been keeping to your house rule of 3 attacks per hex. The effectiveness of GA needs to be toned down or else we will need ever more complex house rules. Reminds me of the days when the Russians could destroy the LW in '42 by bombing its bases.
@ Kofiman - Pelton is still serving out his ban.
web exchange
Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi
Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?
Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi
Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?
RE: T120-key events
Prolly IL2M3s, they're absolutely lethal in some attacks. I wonder if at some point they were turned up to 11 to compensate for attack restrictions or somebody decided to create an artificial mechanism to make the Russians powerful in 1943? Either way, when and where the Axis concentrate their dwindling band of fighters, they still rule the skies in 43. Even 109G-2s will slaughter any Russian fighter and 190A-4s/Gs and 109G-6s are bread and butter at this point. Get past the escorts and any IL2s will go down by the score.
Pelton could be drawing your planes up to engage on his terms and tearing them up. Maybe only treading water in terms of pest control but hammering morale and experience and greatly reducing their impact on the ground war.
The three attacks per hex rule opens up a whole bag of opportunities to both sides. It is a shame if you start the game in one build, so you cut your cloth to that, then the patch team significantly move the goal posts part way through. That said, I really have little sympathy when certain people develop completely ahistorical game ruses and follow artificial objectives, then complain the game isn't historical.
Pelton could be drawing your planes up to engage on his terms and tearing them up. Maybe only treading water in terms of pest control but hammering morale and experience and greatly reducing their impact on the ground war.
The three attacks per hex rule opens up a whole bag of opportunities to both sides. It is a shame if you start the game in one build, so you cut your cloth to that, then the patch team significantly move the goal posts part way through. That said, I really have little sympathy when certain people develop completely ahistorical game ruses and follow artificial objectives, then complain the game isn't historical.
“Old age is the most unexpected of all things that can happen to a man.”
-Leon Trotsky
-Leon Trotsky
RE: T120-key events
The 3 attacks per hex makes getting a real breakthrough much easier from what I'm seeing as my airforce can actually continually support each stage of the operation...instead of only assisting the initial breakthrough like it was with only 1 attack per air unit period.
As to the German airforce Pelton has....his entire airforce by OOB is only 1,000 German aircraft and several hundred Axis allied planes. To be honest most of the Soviet airforce is current operating in the Kiev area as its the only place of heavy fighting on the map.
So those 1k or so axis planes are facing around 6k Soviet aircraft even if all axis planes were concentrated in the one area of heavy action. 6:1 odds means it really doesn't matter, my fighters are good enough that his overall exchange rate wont hit 6:1. He could mitigate or reduce my bombing attacks some but really don't think he can dint my airforce much at this point. Plus again if I see him actually rally his airforce to contest airspace for a week I will just deploy my 1,000 reserve fighters to that sector for the next week.
Also yes all of my bombers are IL2M3s--is a couple units still using the older model but most of my bomber units are all using the most current IL variant. Which is at least 9 airgroups of dedicated ground attack IL's per fronts air army. Several armies have 18-27 IL2 airgroups in support.
As to the German airforce Pelton has....his entire airforce by OOB is only 1,000 German aircraft and several hundred Axis allied planes. To be honest most of the Soviet airforce is current operating in the Kiev area as its the only place of heavy fighting on the map.
So those 1k or so axis planes are facing around 6k Soviet aircraft even if all axis planes were concentrated in the one area of heavy action. 6:1 odds means it really doesn't matter, my fighters are good enough that his overall exchange rate wont hit 6:1. He could mitigate or reduce my bombing attacks some but really don't think he can dint my airforce much at this point. Plus again if I see him actually rally his airforce to contest airspace for a week I will just deploy my 1,000 reserve fighters to that sector for the next week.
Also yes all of my bombers are IL2M3s--is a couple units still using the older model but most of my bomber units are all using the most current IL variant. Which is at least 9 airgroups of dedicated ground attack IL's per fronts air army. Several armies have 18-27 IL2 airgroups in support.
RE: T120-key events
The question is why Pelton only has 1k German planes + Axis minors. All the same, if they're all F/FB, you'd clearly be surprised at what they can do.So those 1k or so axis planes are facing around 6k Soviet aircraft even if all axis planes were concentrated in the one area of heavy action. 6:1 odds means it really doesn't matter, my fighters are good enough that his overall exchange rate wont hit 6:1. He could mitigate or reduce my bombing attacks some but really don't think he can dint my airforce much at this point. Plus again if I see him actually rally his airforce to contest airspace for a week I will just deploy my 1,000 reserve fighters to that sector for the next week.
“Old age is the most unexpected of all things that can happen to a man.”
-Leon Trotsky
-Leon Trotsky
RE: T120-key events
Maybe, but he used his whole airforce in 1942 and I was still able to bomb him fairly effectively.
Its more or less like reserves, you bleed off some activations then a lot of the time they sit passively afterward.
Example would be send in some heavily escorted air attacks on his airbases force his fighters to fight a lot over their own airfields. Next send in heavily escorted air attacks close or on surrounding airfields....after that his fighters are tired/have used a lot of the % of use.
Then bomb the ground targets you want. As long as they aren't within a couple hexes of the fighter airbases at that point you usually wont get intercepted. Yes you will lose a lot of Soviet planes on the sacrifice air strikes/grps against the fighter airbases but in general the Soviets have the airframes to lose. Least that's how it worked .05 and before lol.
Also is realistic and tactically sound...if I send hundreds of planes to attack your airbases kinda hard for your fighters to then also cover the frontlines. Its all about numbers and most of the war the soviets have them. Same principle as bleed off attacks an such. Sacrifice a couple units to weaken up the target hex enough that the real attack can win.
Another bonus to the sacrifice air attacks on airbases---if you attack an airbase a lot, and enemy fighters resist tooth and nail after several attacks or even weeks of attacks that airbase ends up with a lot of damaged aircraft. So if can then actually overrun it with ground forces this causes a ton of lost aircraft. A tactic I was able to hit him with a couple times in 1942. Its basically how I gutted the Finnish airforce.
Its more or less like reserves, you bleed off some activations then a lot of the time they sit passively afterward.
Example would be send in some heavily escorted air attacks on his airbases force his fighters to fight a lot over their own airfields. Next send in heavily escorted air attacks close or on surrounding airfields....after that his fighters are tired/have used a lot of the % of use.
Then bomb the ground targets you want. As long as they aren't within a couple hexes of the fighter airbases at that point you usually wont get intercepted. Yes you will lose a lot of Soviet planes on the sacrifice air strikes/grps against the fighter airbases but in general the Soviets have the airframes to lose. Least that's how it worked .05 and before lol.
Also is realistic and tactically sound...if I send hundreds of planes to attack your airbases kinda hard for your fighters to then also cover the frontlines. Its all about numbers and most of the war the soviets have them. Same principle as bleed off attacks an such. Sacrifice a couple units to weaken up the target hex enough that the real attack can win.
Another bonus to the sacrifice air attacks on airbases---if you attack an airbase a lot, and enemy fighters resist tooth and nail after several attacks or even weeks of attacks that airbase ends up with a lot of damaged aircraft. So if can then actually overrun it with ground forces this causes a ton of lost aircraft. A tactic I was able to hit him with a couple times in 1942. Its basically how I gutted the Finnish airforce.
RE: T120-key events
That's a lot of Russian air miles and not so many Axis, depending how his bases are set up.
In any case, counter tactics were to put empty staging bases forward and keep the fighters a bit further back, bombers out of reach. Even more Russian air miles though more too for Axis to front lines. Ram the Fleigerkorps HQ full of flak and sit them on the fighter base etc and see how it goes. Better to change tactics turn by turn, moving bases around, use bait and concealment etc. It's cat and mouse.
43 Russians are getting a bit < 350 F/FB a week. Sounds a lot, but use the tactics you're suggesting and they won't go very far, I promise. Axis get more F/FB than they have units to take them. I think lowest point of fighter units in east is July/August, then you get a few JGs headed east again. Some time in 44 each JG expands 50%+ but I've never been there yet.
Haven't really explored what new patch offers Axis yet but I've got a few ideas...
In any case, counter tactics were to put empty staging bases forward and keep the fighters a bit further back, bombers out of reach. Even more Russian air miles though more too for Axis to front lines. Ram the Fleigerkorps HQ full of flak and sit them on the fighter base etc and see how it goes. Better to change tactics turn by turn, moving bases around, use bait and concealment etc. It's cat and mouse.
43 Russians are getting a bit < 350 F/FB a week. Sounds a lot, but use the tactics you're suggesting and they won't go very far, I promise. Axis get more F/FB than they have units to take them. I think lowest point of fighter units in east is July/August, then you get a few JGs headed east again. Some time in 44 each JG expands 50%+ but I've never been there yet.
Haven't really explored what new patch offers Axis yet but I've got a few ideas...
“Old age is the most unexpected of all things that can happen to a man.”
-Leon Trotsky
-Leon Trotsky
RE: T120-key events
Ohh I know Mehring there are tactics you can use. The issue the axis have is if you stick your fighters that far back relying on staging bases they don't seem to intercept for the frontline....Soviets have the same problem.
From what I have seen in the game your chance to intercept is based on your fighters airbase distance from the target. So the closer the more likely you will get interception. You put your axis fighters that far back and really as the Soviets I don't care as you wont intercept my raids most of the time anyway based on the game engine and that makes sense. Interception relying on staging would be a pretty iffy proposition based on the detection technology of the time. So again realistic in the game IMO. Almost all games use a distance from airbase factor for interception which for WW2 makes perfect sense.
If your far away your more protected from enemy airbase strikes but at the same time its hard for your airforce to react based on distance. The airwar is kind of a game in and of itself, and one thing I do like about this patch is the air war is much more important to actually fight competently. Before this patch the Soviet airforce was nothing more than basically a free artillery division attack on the hex before the main assault. Now I can hit the German units at every stage of the operation which is much more realistic warfare and game effects based on 1 week turns.
You read bagration---one of the big reasons the soviets were so successful was the constant air strikes on the retreating German units...you can now do this in game and it has a drastic effect on enemy CV over several hexes of attacks.
From what I have seen in the game your chance to intercept is based on your fighters airbase distance from the target. So the closer the more likely you will get interception. You put your axis fighters that far back and really as the Soviets I don't care as you wont intercept my raids most of the time anyway based on the game engine and that makes sense. Interception relying on staging would be a pretty iffy proposition based on the detection technology of the time. So again realistic in the game IMO. Almost all games use a distance from airbase factor for interception which for WW2 makes perfect sense.
If your far away your more protected from enemy airbase strikes but at the same time its hard for your airforce to react based on distance. The airwar is kind of a game in and of itself, and one thing I do like about this patch is the air war is much more important to actually fight competently. Before this patch the Soviet airforce was nothing more than basically a free artillery division attack on the hex before the main assault. Now I can hit the German units at every stage of the operation which is much more realistic warfare and game effects based on 1 week turns.
You read bagration---one of the big reasons the soviets were so successful was the constant air strikes on the retreating German units...you can now do this in game and it has a drastic effect on enemy CV over several hexes of attacks.
RE: T120-key events
IMO even in 1943/1944 the German airforce can be effective in protecting one operation/armies area of operation. As you need to concentrate it down to just a couple airbases. In that case you can give extremely good support to one of operations counterattacks/limit the Soviets ability to bomb that one area. The danger of course is that if the Soviets do breakthrough and overrun those airfields its a bad day lol.
RE: T120-key events
You don't have to put the bases so far back their planes don't intervene in the battle, just far enough to tip the air travel odds a bit in your favour. Maybe we'll get to play one of these days and put our tactics into practice.
“Old age is the most unexpected of all things that can happen to a man.”
-Leon Trotsky
-Leon Trotsky
RE: T120-key events
Maybe at the moment just working on finishing up this game and holding off on starting new ones till they stop tinkering with the system massively.
I don't like some of the changes this patch. Glad they are fixing some bugs, but the airbase/air HQ disband should be allowed period. If you have to many bases/HQs both sides should have the option to disband. Most those excess Luftwaffe personnel were eventually used as ground combat troops, probably not as effectively as modeled in the game since in 1 week they basically become 70 EXP/MOR infantry squads when they get send to replace squads in combat units.
Also I'm not so sure the new German counter-attack/withdrawl rule is balanced for the early game/long game. As in the early game I think this is just going to allow an even more bloated German super OOB for 1941-1943. I think its a good change for probably late 1943 on, but in the early war I think its going to reduce German losses to point of being laughable.
I don't like some of the changes this patch. Glad they are fixing some bugs, but the airbase/air HQ disband should be allowed period. If you have to many bases/HQs both sides should have the option to disband. Most those excess Luftwaffe personnel were eventually used as ground combat troops, probably not as effectively as modeled in the game since in 1 week they basically become 70 EXP/MOR infantry squads when they get send to replace squads in combat units.
Also I'm not so sure the new German counter-attack/withdrawl rule is balanced for the early game/long game. As in the early game I think this is just going to allow an even more bloated German super OOB for 1941-1943. I think its a good change for probably late 1943 on, but in the early war I think its going to reduce German losses to point of being laughable.
RE: T120-key events
I don't like some of the changes this patch. Glad they are fixing some bugs, but the airbase/air HQ disband should be allowed period. If you have to many bases/HQs both sides should have the option to disband. Most those excess Luftwaffe personnel were eventually used as ground combat troops, probably not as effectively as modeled in the game since in 1 week they basically become 70 EXP/MOR infantry squads when they get send to replace squads in combat units.
I thought the LW Field divs were created from surplus ground crew, but you get them whether you disband bases or not. Exactly where those divs came from might need looking into to get that right.
Also I'm not so sure the new German counter-attack/withdrawl rule is balanced for the early game/long game. As in the early game I think this is just going to allow an even more bloated German super OOB for 1941-1943. I think its a good change for probably late 1943 on, but in the early war I think its going to reduce German losses to point of being laughable.
I think it's good all the way through and even more applicable early war than late. But the general injury levels and AFV destruction need to be increased, and probably Russian recruitment upped a bit. Net result IMO should be smaller OBs all round and the Russians struggling a bit to raise/maintain unit experience.
I'm also fully occupied right now but the value of a game between us would be that we both tend to play aggressive and that would reveal to a truer extent whether OoBs bloat due to turtling or low losses.
I thought the LW Field divs were created from surplus ground crew, but you get them whether you disband bases or not. Exactly where those divs came from might need looking into to get that right.
Also I'm not so sure the new German counter-attack/withdrawl rule is balanced for the early game/long game. As in the early game I think this is just going to allow an even more bloated German super OOB for 1941-1943. I think its a good change for probably late 1943 on, but in the early war I think its going to reduce German losses to point of being laughable.
I think it's good all the way through and even more applicable early war than late. But the general injury levels and AFV destruction need to be increased, and probably Russian recruitment upped a bit. Net result IMO should be smaller OBs all round and the Russians struggling a bit to raise/maintain unit experience.
I'm also fully occupied right now but the value of a game between us would be that we both tend to play aggressive and that would reveal to a truer extent whether OoBs bloat due to turtling or low losses.
“Old age is the most unexpected of all things that can happen to a man.”
-Leon Trotsky
-Leon Trotsky
RE: T120-key events
As to Luftwaffe Personnel...its tough to figure out/factor I think.
As the Feld divisions manpower came from a lot of different sources. Not to mention had reduced ToE compared to actual german infantry divisions. I don't have historical documents to back up, nor have I really researched a ton on the subject. I do know from reading that they came from excess Luftwaffe personnel from all over Europe = a lot from Western Europe after the end of air campaign against Britain. I think the disbands being allowed maybe within fudge factors with the millions of manpower throughout the game. Esp since they already reduced the manpower from support squads from 20 to 10 with the newer air support squads.
The key thing to me is the extra manpower still needs heavy weapons.....so even if you are the German player apply those extra men---with lots of combat you still hit the armaments crunch which makes sense.
By 1945 the germans fact of the matter didn't have enough weapons to arm everyone nor near enough heavy equipment. Yes they ramped up production but it still fell far short of what the field army actually needed.
Read up on the final units levied to defend Germany- often not even every man got a rifle, and many units armed only with captured rifles with very limited ammunition stocks. The LW german army is interesting because you have some freshly equipped units lavishly equipped with the best kit and other units with super old, and or non-existent equipment.
Even munitions for German weapon systems became very short of supply....read up on 1945---after the Bulge they really had nothing left, artillery batteries going weeks with no muntions after firing off their last loads due to no re-supply from factories. Seelow heights battle- heavy weapons again completely ran out of munitions and one reason the Soviets finally overran them.
Just some examples---if the Soviets are passive and don't destroy german units/equipment then sure a massive lavishly equipped German army...however if the soviet player is doing his job and making the Germans fight hard the Germans should hit an armaments and manpower crunch both even with the Luftwaffe men.
As the Feld divisions manpower came from a lot of different sources. Not to mention had reduced ToE compared to actual german infantry divisions. I don't have historical documents to back up, nor have I really researched a ton on the subject. I do know from reading that they came from excess Luftwaffe personnel from all over Europe = a lot from Western Europe after the end of air campaign against Britain. I think the disbands being allowed maybe within fudge factors with the millions of manpower throughout the game. Esp since they already reduced the manpower from support squads from 20 to 10 with the newer air support squads.
The key thing to me is the extra manpower still needs heavy weapons.....so even if you are the German player apply those extra men---with lots of combat you still hit the armaments crunch which makes sense.
By 1945 the germans fact of the matter didn't have enough weapons to arm everyone nor near enough heavy equipment. Yes they ramped up production but it still fell far short of what the field army actually needed.
Read up on the final units levied to defend Germany- often not even every man got a rifle, and many units armed only with captured rifles with very limited ammunition stocks. The LW german army is interesting because you have some freshly equipped units lavishly equipped with the best kit and other units with super old, and or non-existent equipment.
Even munitions for German weapon systems became very short of supply....read up on 1945---after the Bulge they really had nothing left, artillery batteries going weeks with no muntions after firing off their last loads due to no re-supply from factories. Seelow heights battle- heavy weapons again completely ran out of munitions and one reason the Soviets finally overran them.
Just some examples---if the Soviets are passive and don't destroy german units/equipment then sure a massive lavishly equipped German army...however if the soviet player is doing his job and making the Germans fight hard the Germans should hit an armaments and manpower crunch both even with the Luftwaffe men.
T123
T123- Lots of mud- a couple axis allied divisions are taken prison and some minor attacks to push some weak points in his lines. Kinda curious why Finland hasnt surrendered yet....as according to the rules I thought Vyborg, Narva, and Pskov after 1943 was the trigger.
Vitebsk is retaken against a security division.
Lots of Soviet rail engineers working to get rail lines moved up as we leave dead trucks all over Russia trying to run supplies all over the map lol.
Vitebsk is retaken against a security division.
Lots of Soviet rail engineers working to get rail lines moved up as we leave dead trucks all over Russia trying to run supplies all over the map lol.
RE: T120-key events
ORIGINAL: chaos45
Also I'm not so sure the new German counter-attack/withdrawl rule is balanced for the early game/long game. As in the early game I think this is just going to allow an even more bloated German super OOB for 1941-1943. I think its a good change for probably late 1943 on, but in the early war I think its going to reduce German losses to point of being laughable.
Have to disagree on this one, the changes have made correct loss ratios possible for the first time, if OOBs are growing what is needed is an increase in absolute casualties for both sides (I think moravel said this was not too difficult to do if necessary).
RE: T120-key events
Haven't had a chance to re-play the early game yet was just worried because in previous playing's of the early game German losses are very low unless the Germans do poorly and Soviets do really well. That's what I was basing my statement on.
RE: T120-key events
Yes, the old numbers game...
Big part of the problem is based on the (unlucky?) design of 'morale' as the most important factor, especially as an exponential function (in RL, you would exspect the biggest differences somewhere between 25-50 and not in the 95-99 area...), so just look a the CV
Despite the hard (and voluntary) work of modders, a lot of numbers in the game are just chrome at the moment, lol
In the original release only the first half year was seriously tested and balanced.
In GG's world big fish gets stronger and fat by eating small fish, until he decided all the grey Wehrmacht sharks were getting to strong, so he let them starved in the blizzard to a four million heap of clueless noobs.
The main problem of a developer is the playability - as you have stated, battle losses did not represent a week of hard fighting, but only a day. Make it bloodier, make the German losses realistic and you could exspect a lot of crying in the forums, lol, as we could exspect half of the German Divisions trashed, really trashed even before August...
Big part of the problem is based on the (unlucky?) design of 'morale' as the most important factor, especially as an exponential function (in RL, you would exspect the biggest differences somewhere between 25-50 and not in the 95-99 area...), so just look a the CV
Despite the hard (and voluntary) work of modders, a lot of numbers in the game are just chrome at the moment, lol
In the original release only the first half year was seriously tested and balanced.
In GG's world big fish gets stronger and fat by eating small fish, until he decided all the grey Wehrmacht sharks were getting to strong, so he let them starved in the blizzard to a four million heap of clueless noobs.
The main problem of a developer is the playability - as you have stated, battle losses did not represent a week of hard fighting, but only a day. Make it bloodier, make the German losses realistic and you could exspect a lot of crying in the forums, lol, as we could exspect half of the German Divisions trashed, really trashed even before August...
RE: T120-key events
An increase in casualty rates from ordinary combat and retreat is urgently needed. As things now stand, both armies wind up bloated with men and equipment
unless the Germans win early and big.
Look at the final turns of any campaign game that the Soviets win. Even defeated Germany has a huge army, well supplied and equipped. It just can't hold its
ground well enough. In the real war, heavy fighting ground down the Germans. The Soviet Bagration offensive just trampled a whole German Army Group.
Soviet losses are unrealistically light as well. Once the time of pockets is past, they just can't be hurt.
unless the Germans win early and big.
Look at the final turns of any campaign game that the Soviets win. Even defeated Germany has a huge army, well supplied and equipped. It just can't hold its
ground well enough. In the real war, heavy fighting ground down the Germans. The Soviet Bagration offensive just trampled a whole German Army Group.
Soviet losses are unrealistically light as well. Once the time of pockets is past, they just can't be hurt.
you cannot refine it