What to do with a big German Navy?

[alexvand]

So, I was attempting to do a Sea Lion. (Yes, the advice I was given was that it's a bad idea, but I had to try it!)

Unfortunately, US entry was nuts. It's M/J 1941 and the US is at total war. Germany just barely managed to take Gibraltar and conquer Spain before the first US units started landed. (They've landed just south of Morocco.) Japan is scrambling to take the resource area. (Singapore invested, Manila just fell, oil secured, but US troops in Rabaul and many of the small multi-sea zone ports in the area.) Suez has not fallen, and the Germans still have to conquer Portugal.

The Germans went and built a big navy. Finishing everything in the construction pool and building quite a few transports and Amphibs. They even finished the Jean Bart II.

There is no Barb, the Germans are attempting a stizkreig on that front. The Russians got trounced by the Japanese earlier so they're a little weak right now and Germany should be able to hold them for a while.

But what do the Germans do with their enormous fleet now that invading England is not a good plan with the US army on its way?

[Klydon]

Interesting situation and with the US coming in that early, you would think it is going to be curtains for the Axis very early.

I guess one question is are you playing with oil and if so, how active can the Euro-Axis fleets really be? The next question is what is the state of the Luftwaffe? I would assume it is somewhat geared towards a sea action if you were looking to do a Sea Lion.

Having Gibraltar is key and I think you move the party there as much as possible. Leave some lift/amphib at home to keep Uncle Joe honest when the time comes that Russia will get involved. Having the ability to send extra troops to Finland or to land along a long coast might help out.

The combined Italio-German fleet should be enough to dominate the Med and get the Axis to the Suez in order to secure the Med as a Axis pond. Certainly the threat of a invasion right into the heartland of Egypt is going to make life complicated for the Royal navy. You can also threaten the CW lines of communication (IE, their convoys) out of Gibraltar and also out of Portugal once you have that under wraps as well. It will also cause the US to heavily protect their convoys to Morocco and slow down the advance there. You need to get troops on the other side if you can in order to keep the Allies from building up a pile of aircraft and making Gibraltar dangerous for a fleet to hang out in.

If you are playing oil rules, all this could be problematic in terms of your activity level even if the panzers are not on the move. The Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine can guzzle oil with the best of them not to mention the Regia Marina.

My two cents.

[Jagdtiger14]

If you are doing a sitz vs USSR (I've never seen it work out well for the Germans)...then just before you think USSR can break the pact, DOW USSR for surprise reasons (avoiding his, getting yours).

What Klydon wrote is good advise.

Besides Gibraltar, Lisbon is an awesome port to operate out of. Do not combine the German and Italian fleets or you get a movement penalty.

I've seen the Germans give the US huge supply headaches in Morocco in a similar circumstance.

#1 goal should be to take out Suez, run through the Mideast.

Japan situation doesn't sound good at all if Rabaul+ has already been taken.

[Centuur]

Lisbon makes a very good port for raiding CW convoys too, especially during bad weather impulses (storms) when CVP can't fly. Hit and run is the tactic. Make sure you've got the ports where the Italian and German fleets are covered by FTR's...

[DQ2004]

With a large German navy and no Russian campaign you can have lots of fun in the Atlantic.
The Allies have three problems to deal with, most of these are obvious but I will list them for clarity;
1. They need to maintain the convoy chain to England, cos, production.
2. They need to reinforce their armies on the frontlines wherever they may be, thus protecting those transports is vital.
3. They need to maintain supply where relevant (e.g. Morocco in this case).
To achieve these missions they do not need to destroy the German fleet but of course doing so will make these missions a lot easier.
Their problems are thus threefold;
1. The convoys go through a long chain of sea areas and by controlling Gibraltar and Lisbon the Axis can threaten any sea area in the North Atlantic as they choose.
2. They need to have sufficient force available to defend transports.
3. They need to maintain control of certain key sea areas and block Axis control of as many sea areas as possible.
Even though they may have many more ships available than the Axis, the big problem is that by possessing a relatively large fleet the Germans can afford to take some risks. They can afford to wait for Allied naval moves before pouncing on a weaker group, or if they have the initiative, they can destroy convoys before more ships and planes are able to effectively defend them on the first impulse of a turn. So the Allies need to have more ships to have any chance of achieving their missions.

The Germans can have a lot of fun in this scenario. Yes that big scary bear is gonna bite soon, but in the meantime you can build a few offensive chits and prepare to blast those T-34s away in their droves when they do come. While you prepare for that, you can cause so much havoc at sea that the Allies may never be ready to strike their own blow.

In the below game you can see the consequence of a strong Axis navy; It is Jan-Feb 1945 and US armies in Southern West Africa are cut-off and despite (originally) being roughly even numbers are being very roughly handled and continually losing ground.

Regards

[ncc1701e]

I am completely new to both MWIF and WIF. Keeping reading posts about it.

Thus, sorry for the stupid question but what kind of ships Germany is able to build if they go for a "big" navy?
Do they have counters available for a carrier or for crazy project like H-39 battleships?

Thank you

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

I am completely new to both MWIF and WIF. Keeping reading posts about it.

Thus, sorry for the stupid question but what kind of ships Germany is able to build if they go for a "big" navy?
Do they have counters available for a carrier or for crazy project like H-39 battleships?

Thank you

warspite1

The short answer is yes - and I will post some piccy's to whet your appetite in a minute [8D]

One word of caution though. Plan Z was a pipe-dream because of the resources that would have been required (and the fact that, even if available, these would have come at the expense of tank and aircraft production). (M)WIF is not complete fantasy so if you are looking to go too deeply into a large Kriegsmarine, then don't expect to be building much of an army! However that is the great thing about (M)WIF - the decision is yours! Just remember, every decision comes at a cost.... [:)]

[warspite1]

If you fancy some carrier action....there are light carriers too (not shown) [8D]

[warspite1]

How about some planes to go on them?

[warspite1]

Maybe battlewagons and battlecruisers are yo thang?

[warspite1]

...or cruisers: heavy or light?

[warspite1]

If you are going to try Sealion (Operation Certain Death (but not necessarily in (M)WIF)) you'll need some of these bad boyz..

[warspite1]

And of course building up a naval air arm would seem sensible [:)]

[Jagdtiger14]

Yes, Operation Sea Lion in WiF is certain death. Even the great WiF player Andrew Rader couldn't pull it off.

http://www.andrew-rader.com/

Wow! He works for SpaceX now!

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

I am completely new to both MWIF and WIF. Keeping reading posts about it.

Thus, sorry for the stupid question but what kind of ships Germany is able to build if they go for a "big" navy?
Do they have counters available for a carrier or for crazy project like H-39 battleships?

Thank you

warspite1

The short answer is yes - and I will post some piccy's to whet your appetite in a minute [8D]

One word of caution though. Plan Z was a pipe-dream because of the resources that would have been required (and the fact that, even if available, these would have come at the expense of tank and aircraft production). (M)WIF is not complete fantasy so if you are looking to go too deeply into a large Kriegsmarine, then don't expect to be building much of an army! However that is the great thing about (M)WIF - the decision is yours! Just remember, every decision comes at a cost.... [:)]

Thank you so much !!! Looks like many "What if" options exist.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

I am completely new to both MWIF and WIF. Keeping reading posts about it.

Thus, sorry for the stupid question but what kind of ships Germany is able to build if they go for a "big" navy?
Do they have counters available for a carrier or for crazy project like H-39 battleships?

Thank you

warspite1

The short answer is yes - and I will post some piccy's to whet your appetite in a minute [8D]

One word of caution though. Plan Z was a pipe-dream because of the resources that would have been required (and the fact that, even if available, these would have come at the expense of tank and aircraft production). (M)WIF is not complete fantasy so if you are looking to go too deeply into a large Kriegsmarine, then don't expect to be building much of an army! However that is the great thing about (M)WIF - the decision is yours! Just remember, every decision comes at a cost.... [:)]

Thank you so much !!! Looks like many "What if" options exist.

warspite1

Yes there are - and to be clear, that is what (M)WIF is all about. This is a World War II game. There are a few set rules that provide the necessary historical framework. BUT, outside of these, each player can do what they want - invade Sweden or Turkey as the Germans? Sure. Adopt a Mediterranean strategy as the Axis? Yep. Attack Japan as the CW? You could do that.

The point is, all these things have a cost - not just in terms of the tactical situation that develops, but more importantly perhaps, on what this does to US involvement.

Many games state that "no two games are the same". This is true of (M)WIF. The replayability is endless because of the way the rules have been crafted.

[rkr1958]

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

Yes, Operation Sea Lion in WiF is certain death. Even the great WiF player Andrew Rader couldn't pull it off.

http://www.andrew-rader.com/

Wow! He works for SpaceX now!

Has anyone ever pulled off a 1940 Sea Lion against a competent opponent?

[Jagdtiger14]

Ronnie: I have never seen it even against an incompetent player. The only Sea Lion I've seen pulled off in a strategic game was in the old A3R (now AWAW).

[rkr1958]

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

Ronnie: I have never seen it even against an incompetent player. The only Sea Lion I've seen pulled off in a strategic game was in the old A3R (now AWAW).

I pulled it off once in a game, though not in MWiF but in CEaW-GS, against a very good human opponent, but it was totally unintentional. To see what I mean, check out: http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtop ... 47#p469347

[AlbertN]

Sea Lion by how it is at the present is folly in my eyes.

Just because Axis sets a foot on England, US gets 1.5 chits? That is my first big "No-Go".

Germany would have to build for something they're not prepared for - against the nation that has the biggest fleet ever (and can focus on enough air and land forces to defend their homeland).
When Germany would even gets ashore - if they're in Scotland in the mountains to resist a counterattack, they gained no relevant land, give possibly a production boost to UK, and on the long run I cannot see their forces resist out of supply and without oil.
If Germany lands in the industrial south, UK should have enough forces to counterattack and contain them at worst. Sooner or later the Royal Navy will prevail over the Kriegsmarine.

And to achieve what is a certain failure, the German player trashes the game since to produce stuff for the Sealion they drain resources needed for else.

MWiF is not really an open game - you can do things. Many things. Heck, even plan to invade USA if you really want. The question is can you do it? How sensible it is to do certain things.
Germany can attack Turkey - yeah sure. Why you'd do it? Giving more units to the enemy, forfeitting a free resource, give to them 2 factories and 2 resources; to get through a terrain that is impervious? No that is not a smart choice.
Germany can attack Spain - yeah sure. Why you'd do it? To get 4 resources + 1 from Portugal. To close the Med. To gain 2 factories. Heck, looks like a potential no brainer - but it has a cost; extra US chits, and maybe delaying Barbarossa. This is an option you can weight. Turkey is a no brainer in not doing it.

In its current incarnation it is a WW2 game, and it streamlines about the WW2 - which is fair by my side. The variables are on tactical and strategical level but they do not detatch too much from the real possibilities in history (except it can turn into an Axis wet dream game - which I am fine with, as I tend to believe a WW2 grand strategy game should have as the average outcome the historical result; but it can swing better for both sides. From Axis conquering / forcing surrender to Soviets; to a Berlin is burning in '44. A game where though Germany is easily stopped in France has a problem in my eyes - that would be Allies doing -too- well, and alas in MWiF can happen.)