Air Battle - The Litani River, 2017 (new title, seemed more appropriate) - new beta for testing

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Mgellis
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Air Battle - The Litani River, 2017 (new title, seemed more appropriate) - new beta for testing

Post by Mgellis »

A new beta for testing. A short little war between Israel and Syria, which is using Lebanon as a proxy. Goals are knocking out some SAM sites in southern Lebanon and gaining air superiority by killing a lot of Syrian MiGs.

As always, please offer feedback. Observations, suggestions, etc. on anything that needs to be fixed, what could be done to make the scenario better, more fun, more "credible," etc. are all welcome. Thanks!

(I changed the title because it seemed more appropriate to call this a battle than a war.)

[version 5 uploaded at 2:40 PM EST 2/27/16]
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Nightwatch
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RE: The Litani River War, 2017 - new beta for testing

Post by Nightwatch »

Hey,

given the current turmoil in Syria, a deployment of regular syrian AD units to Lebanon in 2017 seems pretty unlikely.
Hezbollah acquiring/deploying modern SAM systems would be much more believable.
You might also want to consider Russia as a faction. After 6 years of civil war, the Syrian Air Force is in no shape to go up against the IAF.
You could build some events with Russia entering a conflict started by a Hezbollah sneak attack, after Israel bombs the wrong targets in Syria or something.
Of course this would scale up very quickly.

The Israeli OOB is not very realistic IMO. But the question is how far to you want to push it to make it more credible.

IMO they would obviously deploy their A-Team against a sophisticated IADS, meaning F-16Is and F-15Is (and very likely F-35Is as well in 2017), not just a couple of vintage Vipers.
Also, you should at the Gulfstream Shavit SIGINT variant, replace Hermes450 with Hermes 900 or Eitans and remove the F-16As. The IAF is phasing them out at the moment, there is no way they would use them in 2017 against modern syrian air defenses.
The same goes for the Patriots. They will replace them with the David Sling SAM system which will get operational this year.
If Israel goes to war in 2017 they will most definitely deploy David Sling. Unfortunately the system is still missing from the database, so nothing you can do there.

The radar blimp in the Negev is a nice touch but it highlights a bigger problem: If you want to make it realistic you would need to add pretty much all their modern radars (Green Pines), including the American ones right next to the blimp. Green Pine comes along with the hole Arrow ABM System which would be deployed in a crisis as well.
Anyway, you'd end up with pretty much their hole air force if you'd really want to make it credible and even then... unfortunately the IAF is not very accurately modelled in CMANO, some key capabilities are just missing, especially in the EW department. I made huge post about this somewhere but it was lost in a thread cleanup or something.

Otherwise, it looks pretty good. Worked fine for me, but i did very poorly with all those old Vipers without BVR missiles.
The two dozen locked ref points in the Golan Heights are a litte irritating and i doubt Israel wouldnt strike directly a Syria in such a scenario, but its ok if your goal is to keep it small.
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Mgellis
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RE: The Litani River War, 2017 - new beta for testing

Post by Mgellis »

Version 2 uploaded with some suggestions from Nightwatch implemented. I'm relying on Scramble to determine which F-16s are located at particular bases, but I have added some F-15Cs to the mix to give Israel some BVR capability. I also added some of the Arrow SAM systems. Gave the Syrians a little more firepower, but I suspect Israel will slaughter them without too much trouble.

Please let me know what you think. Thanks!

Wasicun
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RE: The Litani River War, 2017 - new beta for testing

Post by Wasicun »

I really enjoyed this mission. I played the version 1. Now i'll try the version 2. Keep up the good work!
Nightwatch
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RE: The Litani River War, 2017 - new beta for testing

Post by Nightwatch »

Yes, looks good now.
But please switch the Hermes 450 with the 900 or Eitans.
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Mgellis
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RE: The Litani River War, 2017 - new beta for testing

Post by Mgellis »

ORIGINAL: Nightwatch

Yes, looks good now.
But please switch the Hermes 450 with the 900 or Eitans.

Nevatim aircraft are now (version 3, when I post it)...

6 x F-16A (meant to fly near high-value aircraft as escorts...in case something gets past the F-15s)
2 x Hermes 900
1 x RC-12K Guardrail (not entirely sure what this is good for, but Israel is still using them and I figured it doesn't hurt to put up another kind of eyes and ears)
1 x Gulfstream 550 SEMA <-- by the way, you lose a bunch of extra points if you lose this aircraft
2 x Gulfstream 550 CAEW <-- ditto
4 x Boeing 707-320 Tanker



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Mgellis
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RE: The Litani River War, 2017 - new beta for testing

Post by Mgellis »

Version 3 uploaded. Enjoy!

Oh, the Hermes 900s can operate as surveillance drones or as jamming aircraft. :)
Nightwatch
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RE: The Litani River War, 2017 - new beta for testing

Post by Nightwatch »

Got you there with the Hermes900 [:'(]
The system is called Skyjam.

The Israeli RC-12 Kookiya are some very interesting aircraft.
They are still active, two took part in the independence day flyover, apparently in very good condition. I bet the IAF put them through an extensive upgrade program, the capabilities of the aircraft are anyones guess.
Personally i would give them an RC-12P or even RC-12X instand of a 92s 12K. Should be somewhat more accurate.

Again on the F-16As... it just doesnt make much sense, no matter what you are supposed to do with them. The 116 Sqd which currently operates the Netz at Nevatim will transition to the F-35 this year. Its more than likely they will have no combat coded F-16s left at Nevatim in 2017.
If you feel the need for more fighters you can always add the 117 Sqd with F-16Cs at Ramat David.

One issue i have found while playing:
For some reason the AGM-88A cant target an SA-17 at all. It makes the loadout pretty much useless.






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Mgellis
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RE: The Litani River War, 2017 - new beta for testing

Post by Mgellis »

Version 4 uploaded. I took out the F-16As and added some F-15Is from the 69th squadron at Tel Nof. They are currently in "reserve" so they can be used for CAP, strike missions, etc. at the discretion of the player (but with an appropriate wait time).

Not sure why the HARMs are not working. I was able to get them to target the SAMs, but the SA-17s seem to be "sneaky," their radar is not always on so the HARMs can only target them at certain times.

RC-12P not provided for Israel, so I stuck with the RC-12K. It looks like the most advanced RC-12 they have that is included in the database. Probably not a critical issue, though.

Hope this is an improvement. Let me know what you think. Thanks!
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Sardaukar
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RE: The Litani River War, 2017 - new beta for testing

Post by Sardaukar »

I generally often add forrlwing things to IAF high-value support planes following (since most likely they are equipped wiht them):

- MAWS
- DECM
- flares & chaff
"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-

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Nightwatch
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RE: The Litani River War, 2017 - new beta for testing

Post by Nightwatch »

Yeah well, there is lots of tech missing on Israeli Aircraft in CMANO...

Version 4 looks good to me.

F-15Is are stationed at Hatzerim, not Tel Nof but thats not really important.



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Sardaukar
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RE: The Litani River War, 2017 - new beta for testing

Post by Sardaukar »

I had way of adding new sensors etc. to a/c..since one cannot do it in ground...but seems devs took that way out. Shouldn't have told them. [&:][:'(]

So, disregard my advice of adding stuff, it seems not to work.

*double edit*: New a/c loadout/drag/evasion system seems to take away ability to edit a/c. Makes sense but is bit of a bummer for me. I like to tinker especially with Israeli AF.
"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-

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VFA41_Lion
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RE: The Litani River War, 2017 - new beta for testing

Post by VFA41_Lion »

iirc all the F-16A/Bs of the IAF were upgraded with systems equivalent to the F-16C, but the engine was not.
Nightwatch
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RE: The Litani River War, 2017 - new beta for testing

Post by Nightwatch »

Yes the Netz were upgraded during the early nineties to Barak Standard but nothing much happened after that. Their F-16C/D fleet continues to get upgrades and doesnt differentiate much from the F-16I.
Unfortunately the last time i looked at it in detail, CMANO made comparatively poor job of accurately simulating the Sufas actual/likely capabilities.
Btw, there was a push for further avionic upgrades for the F-16A/Bs by IAI about fifteen years ago (F-16 ACE), but the IAF decided to buy more F-16I instead. Looks like it was the right decision.

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Sardaukar
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RE: The Litani River War, 2017 - new beta for testing

Post by Sardaukar »

IAF has also been upgrading F-15 fleet first to "Baz Meshopar" and beyond, to have similar capabilities as F-15I.
"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-

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AlexGGGG
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RE: The Litani River War, 2017 - new beta for testing

Post by AlexGGGG »

Mark, FYI I played version 4, got the living carp beaten out of me by SCUD launchers on the first attempt, pretty much enjoyed it, and found no anomaly.
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Mgellis
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RE: The Litani River War, 2017 - new beta for testing

Post by Mgellis »

Just uploaded version 5, with a new title. Please let me know what you think. Are any more changes needed or is this one ready for the Community Scenario Pack? Thanks!

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