O/T Drones hunting subs

[tiemanjw]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

With all due respect , a boomer is not impossible to find. I say that from 23 years of finding them. Although I've not done it for a while , I stay very closely with friends of mine who do still. It requires a skilled crew, either that of a maritime patrol aircraft , or a submarine. That skill is very perishable. But it's still very much do-able.

The United States Navy has been spending less and less money on airborne ASW , and diverting funds to "green fuel initiatives" and other projects that are currently politically popular. (I'm not commenting on this in any way , merely saying where some of the money goes. That's a political decision , and well outside my purvey and that of this forum). The UK and the Netherlands have completely abolished MPA aircraft (but at the least the UK is considering ordering American P-8's). The USN has completely abandoned CV based ASW fixed wing aircraft.

There are many , many ways to protect Boomers. Covering them with SSN's and SS's , surface fleets and Land based air. The Soviets developed the "Bastion concept" that was very effective...so effective that the USN/RN was forced to in theory deal with them by sending in SSN's , overwhelming their SSN's , then attacking the SSBN's all the while under attack by USSR aircraft and surface craft (in essence the entire USSR fleet).

So the counter question I must ask is "If boomers are so useless why is the PRC and other countries involved in programs to build them?". Are the Chinese stupid? Not in my opinion.

The primary reason for the UK NOT to have SSBN's is the same reason they have in the past declared CV's , bombers , land based missiles and maritime patrol aircraft to be unnecessary , the expense. Especially when a large part of the political class feel "why build them? The Yanks will cover us". The French did not even consider that option , spending a great deal of time creating , maintaining and updating their independent SSBN program (part of the French Nuclear triad ---forgive my "non-French speaking ability" , I believe is the "force de frappe".

It simply amounts to a matter of national will. And a judgment that such vessels are required. Personally , I feel that they are.

Thanks for chiming in... I guess I worked for a few too many former bubble heads [:)] and overstated the difficulty. I have zero experience in either finding subs or hiding them. Thanks.
I would be curious about the degree of difficulty required to track them based on class (generation / technology level / etc), though I accept I'll never get a full answer on that one (for very good reasons). Though anything you can say will be welcomed here.

Do you have any thoughts / info on some of the new AIP subs (I know not boomers, but it is something that I've always been curious about)? The bubbleheads say it is impossible to find and point to an exercise off San Diego a few years ago (against Nimitz? I think) as proof.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

With all due respect , a boomer is not impossible to find. I say that from 23 years of finding them. Although I've not done it for a while , I stay very closely with friends of mine who do still. It requires a skilled crew, either that of a maritime patrol aircraft , or a submarine. That skill is very perishable. But it's still very much do-able.

Soviet SSBNs were possible to find. A combination of bad design, bad maintenance, bad training, and unfortunate geography.

USN SSBNs are a different case. Any exercises you did with them they were not in alert status.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: tiemanj


Do you have any thoughts / info on some of the new AIP subs (I know not boomers, but it is something that I've always been curious about)? The bubbleheads say it is impossible to find and point to an exercise off San Diego a few years ago (against Nimitz? I think) as proof.

Nothing is impossible to find. Certainly nothing with an electric plant. People make too much of propulsion and flow noise.

Edit: but being in mid-ocean in very deep water is a lot more difficult hunting than in choke points near land.

[AW1Steve]

AIP equipped diesel submarines are very hard to find with passive SONAR equipment. You will only hear them when they are transiting. A submarine that doesn't move , doesn't make much noise. Want to hear a non moving submarine on batteries during silent running? Hold a flashlight up to your head. A moving submarine , whatever it's propulsion source makes noise. So you put a AIP submarine in a "choke point" where it's prey must come to it , and it sits there waiting , silently. Some people call that the perfect killer. And they are right. And very wrong.

This choke point ambush scenario will work against a SSN , which also wants to be silent. But a surface group? Especially a CVN group? It's already the noisiest thing in the ocean , so why use acoustic stealth? You won't. It's escorts will bang the hell out of the ocean if a sub is around. And it's helos will drop sonar buoys and bang their "dipping SONAR" and make more noise than the circus coming to town. And here's the real kicker.....a surface guy can read charts too. They also know where the choke points are. So they either don't go there , or ping the water so hard that Flipper and his family will find a new home. A diesel boat (and a AIP is a fancy diesel boat) can't run very fast. They can't stay on station as long as a nuke boat , and they are not comfortable. They can be rough on the crew. So again , their duration or staying power is limited.

In the 1950's the Soviets came up with a very effective tactic against diesel boats , that I think would still work against AIP boats called "mobbing". Basically they take every ship, boat or canoe with a SONAR set or fish finder and flood the suspected area with pinging. Then when you get a contact , every single ASW rocket , Depth charge, projectile , or rock is thrown into and onto that contact. Operating on the principal that "if you throw enough crap on the wall, some of it will stick". Pure Soviet. Very crude , but cheap and effective.

I feel that AIP boats are pretty good "point defense" ships, but not hunters, and not all that effective ocean going killers. Great for killing a SSN that gets sloppy , but probably not that effective against a competent ASW force. That's the key word, competent. You only become competent by lots and lots of practice. That costs time and money. Navies are run by politicians. In peacetime politicians want the "biggest bang for the buck", but NOT for ASW. They want what is most effective for their careers. That means government spending for new weapon systems and jobs for constituents making those weapons systems. No body make money doing ASW training , or for that matter ANY training. So training decreases till conflict becomes likely. THEN all the money in the world becomes available. Right after a third world country's 40 year old junker boat puts a couple of 40 year old surplus torpedoes up the fan tail of a 5 billion dollar bird farm.

Sad , but that's generally the way history has gone.

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

With all due respect , a boomer is not impossible to find. I say that from 23 years of finding them. Although I've not done it for a while , I stay very closely with friends of mine who do still. It requires a skilled crew, either that of a maritime patrol aircraft , or a submarine. That skill is very perishable. But it's still very much do-able.

Soviet SSBNs were possible to find. A combination of bad design, bad maintenance, bad training, and unfortunate geography.

USN SSBNs are a different case. Any exercises you did with them they were not in alert status.

Not completely true. Sometimes we provided the "sanitation" you referred to. And sometimes we found them inadvertently. (AND THAT's when our lives would become miserable! For a USN crew to find a USN SSBN on patrol was a very BAD thing. It didn't happen often ,but............).

[Bullwinkle58]

AIPs are very quiet, yes. But as I said, batteries are DC power. The boat runs on AC. They have to run motor-generators or similar to convert. That makes narrow-band noise. That's all I'm going to say.

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: tiemanj


Do you have any thoughts / info on some of the new AIP subs (I know not boomers, but it is something that I've always been curious about)? The bubbleheads say it is impossible to find and point to an exercise off San Diego a few years ago (against Nimitz? I think) as proof.

Nothing is impossible to find. Certainly nothing with an electric plant. People make too much of propulsion and flow noise.

Edit: but being in mid-ocean in very deep water is a lot more difficult hunting than in choke points near land.

True. But how good is a diesel boat trying to stay quiet against a very fast moving "thundering herd CVN task Force"? You'd be unlikely to get a shot set up without making noise. I suppose it's always possible for the CVN to blunder on them . But probably not all that likely. And a patrolling SSBN? I'd feel more likely to win the power ball lottery.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

With all due respect , a boomer is not impossible to find. I say that from 23 years of finding them. Although I've not done it for a while , I stay very closely with friends of mine who do still. It requires a skilled crew, either that of a maritime patrol aircraft , or a submarine. That skill is very perishable. But it's still very much do-able.

Soviet SSBNs were possible to find. A combination of bad design, bad maintenance, bad training, and unfortunate geography.

USN SSBNs are a different case. Any exercises you did with them they were not in alert status.

Not completely true. Sometimes we provided the "sanitation" you referred to. And sometimes we found them inadvertently. (AND THAT's when our lives would become miserable! For a USN crew to find a USN SSBN on patrol was a very BAD thing. It didn't happen often ,but............).

I highly doubt you found them "on patrol", IOW, on alert. You didn't have that much fuel. Transiting? I'll take your word for it. We weren't particularly quiet at transit depth and a full bell.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: tiemanj


Do you have any thoughts / info on some of the new AIP subs (I know not boomers, but it is something that I've always been curious about)? The bubbleheads say it is impossible to find and point to an exercise off San Diego a few years ago (against Nimitz? I think) as proof.

Nothing is impossible to find. Certainly nothing with an electric plant. People make too much of propulsion and flow noise.

Edit: but being in mid-ocean in very deep water is a lot more difficult hunting than in choke points near land.

True. But how good is a diesel boat trying to stay quiet against a very fast moving "thundering herd CVN task Force"? You'd be unlikely to get a shot set up without making noise. I suppose it's always possible for the CVN to blunder on them . But probably not all that likely. And a patrolling SSBN? I'd feel more likely to win the power ball lottery.

I was agreeing with you. I've heard from the AIP crowd, mostly Europeans, for decades. About how invincible they are, blah blah. No one has ever drilled in full wartime mode. It's too dangerous. As you say, wartime you find it you kill it. Fast and cheap, before the CVN is in range. And skimmers have active sets that can boil water.

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

AIPs are very quiet, yes. But as I said, batteries are DC power. The boat runs on AC. They have to run motor-generators or similar to convert. That makes narrow-band noise. That's all I'm going to say.

Yes. And they have to live. Think what kind of a life you'd have if you lived in your house tip toeing around without using Fan's, air conditioning or heat. Not doing laundry , dishes or flushing a toilet. Not watching TV or movies , playing a stereo or cooking dinner. And oh by the way , the boat can't move. Propellers make noise. Don't believe me? Next time your at the lake this summer and a boat goes by, stick your head under water. OK, a subs not going to make THAT much noise. But then again , you are not using a computer magnified multi million dollar SONAR system.

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58



Nothing is impossible to find. Certainly nothing with an electric plant. People make too much of propulsion and flow noise.

Edit: but being in mid-ocean in very deep water is a lot more difficult hunting than in choke points near land.

True. But how good is a diesel boat trying to stay quiet against a very fast moving "thundering herd CVN task Force"? You'd be unlikely to get a shot set up without making noise. I suppose it's always possible for the CVN to blunder on them . But probably not all that likely. And a patrolling SSBN? I'd feel more likely to win the power ball lottery.

I was agreeing with you. I've heard from the AIP crowd, mostly Europeans, for decades. About how invincible they are, blah blah. No one has ever drilled in full wartime mode. It's too dangerous. As you say, wartime you find it you kill it. Fast and cheap, before the CVN is in range. And skimmers have active sets that can boil water.

I wasn't disagreeing with you. Just approaching it from a different perspective.

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58




Soviet SSBNs were possible to find. A combination of bad design, bad maintenance, bad training, and unfortunate geography.

USN SSBNs are a different case. Any exercises you did with them they were not in alert status.

Not completely true. Sometimes we provided the "sanitation" you referred to. And sometimes we found them inadvertently. (AND THAT's when our lives would become miserable! For a USN crew to find a USN SSBN on patrol was a very BAD thing. It didn't happen often ,but............).

I highly doubt you found them "on patrol", IOW, on alert. You didn't have that much fuel. Transiting? I'll take your word for it. We weren't particularly quiet at transit depth and a full bell.

I'm reminded about the blind squirrel finding dinner. It happens. Or better "Sh-t happens". One might not even be looking for it and one stumbles. Or the other side is so confident that they forget and do something stupid. But I've never gone looking for a US SSBN , and sure as hell wasn't going to be sent after them. But.....

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

I'm reminded about the blind squirrel finding dinner. It happens. Or better "Sh-t happens". One might not even be looking for it and one stumbles. Or the other side is so confident that they forget and do something stupid. But I've never gone looking for a US SSBN , and sure as hell wasn't going to be sent after them. But.....

Well, I know where most of the Atlantic Trident patrol areas were, and where the P-3 bases were. If you found one on alert you had a lot of gas and you got real lucky, real fast. I still maintain you found them on mod-alert or while transiting. But we'll never know.

I was also on a 41 For Freedom boat, early 60s tech. No natural circ reactor. The Ohios were so much quieter then we were there's no comparison.

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

I'm reminded about the blind squirrel finding dinner. It happens. Or better "Sh-t happens". One might not even be looking for it and one stumbles. Or the other side is so confident that they forget and do something stupid. But I've never gone looking for a US SSBN , and sure as hell wasn't going to be sent after them. But.....

Well, I know where most of the Atlantic Trident patrol areas were, and where the P-3 bases were. If you found one on alert you had a lot of gas and you got real lucky, real fast. I still maintain you found them on mod-alert or while transiting. But we'll never know.

I was also on a 41 For Freedom boat, early 60s tech. No natural circ reactor. The Ohios were so much quieter then we were there's no comparison.

Yep, I know , I flew on everything from the newest Trident to the oldest GW class. What were they doing? Don't know , don't care, none of my business. I wish they had been as quiet as you say. Then I wouldn't have had to fill out and sign all those forms that said I didn't see them, and they weren't there. Trust me , none of us were happy to find them.

But I'm confused.....are you saying that if the're not in their "hidey hole box" they don't try to hide?

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

But I'm confused.....are you saying that if the're not in their "hidey hole box" they don't try to hide?

Operations are significantly different while in alert status and on the target package. Subs of all kinds always try to hide as much as possible, but alert is a different world. All I can say here.