Playing as Russians, help needed

[Remmes]

Usually I always play this game from the dark side. But gave it a couple of tries playing as the Russians. The first try was played with the Russians defending as much forward as possible. This is hard 'cause the Reds are seriously underpowered. The game ended with Moscow being overrun from multiple sides somewhere early october.
For the next game I tried to make a controlled withdrawal, but this was even more disastrous with the Germans taking Stalingrad etc. even before the mud season kicked in. When playing against the ai, the Russki's are much stronger and can even pack a punch sometimes. When you play with the Reds yourself thay appear to lack offensive firepower and continually have the Germans unhinge the defensive positions.
Any tips or insights on how to seriously delay the German advance (vs ai) would be welcome.

Thanks,
Ramses

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Ramses

Usually I always play this game from the dark side. But gave it a couple of tries playing as the Russians. The first try was played with the Russians defending as much forward as possible. This is hard 'cause the Reds are seriously underpowered. The game ended with Moscow being overrun from multiple sides somewhere early october.
For the next game I tried to make a controlled withdrawal, but this was even more disastrous with the Germans taking Stalingrad etc. even before the mud season kicked in. When playing against the ai, the Russki's are much stronger and can even pack a punch sometimes. When you play with the Reds yourself thay appear to lack offensive firepower and continually have the Germans unhinge the defensive positions.
Any tips or insights on how to seriously delay the German advance (vs ai) would be welcome.

Thanks,
Ramses

warspite1

Sounds like you made the same mistake as me. Its really very, very simple.

RUN!!

[Moltke71]

ROFLAO! +1

[Remmes]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Ramses

Usually I always play this game from the dark side. But gave it a couple of tries playing as the Russians. The first try was played with the Russians defending as much forward as possible. This is hard 'cause the Reds are seriously underpowered. The game ended with Moscow being overrun from multiple sides somewhere early october.
For the next game I tried to make a controlled withdrawal, but this was even more disastrous with the Germans taking Stalingrad etc. even before the mud season kicked in. When playing against the ai, the Russki's are much stronger and can even pack a punch sometimes. When you play with the Reds yourself thay appear to lack offensive firepower and continually have the Germans unhinge the defensive positions.
Any tips or insights on how to seriously delay the German advance (vs ai) would be welcome.

Thanks,
Ramses

warspite1

Sounds like you made the same mistake as me. Its really very, very simple.

RUN!!

Thanks for sharing your 'insight' Warspite1 [&o], shall give it a try next time.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Ramses

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Ramses

Usually I always play this game from the dark side. But gave it a couple of tries playing as the Russians. The first try was played with the Russians defending as much forward as possible. This is hard 'cause the Reds are seriously underpowered. The game ended with Moscow being overrun from multiple sides somewhere early october.
For the next game I tried to make a controlled withdrawal, but this was even more disastrous with the Germans taking Stalingrad etc. even before the mud season kicked in. When playing against the ai, the Russki's are much stronger and can even pack a punch sometimes. When you play with the Reds yourself thay appear to lack offensive firepower and continually have the Germans unhinge the defensive positions.
Any tips or insights on how to seriously delay the German advance (vs ai) would be welcome.

Thanks,
Ramses

warspite1

Sounds like you made the same mistake as me. Its really very, very simple.

RUN!!

Thanks for sharing your 'insight' Warspite1 [&o], shall give it a try next time.

warspite1

I'm not kidding!! Forget any idea of a 'controlled withdrawal'. It was the advice I was given and its not wrong. Obviously you need to put some units into cities, behind rivers etc etc - but these are to be relatively few in number and just designed to a) delay the Germans and b) try and ensure whatever can move, moves and so lessens the chances of being surrounded. Believe me, with the activation rate, you won't be saving much of the original army even then.

I try and replace the incompetent marshals quickly (but of course there is a knock-on effect with Stalin's paranoia). Make use of the trouble shooters - particularly Zhukov to try and blow bridges. Keep your HQ as safe as you can (while still running and keeping units in command range!). Don't take a risk and place your reinforcements too far forward - have a weather eye on how quickly the Germans are advancing. Do not bother saving PP - you do and sods law Stalin will have an attack and they are all wasted.

At some point - unless you are up against the best, you hopefully will be able to make a stand somewhere - but do not be premature in making that decision.

[James Ward]

Yes about the 5-6th turn you should be looking at where you will make your stand as the Russians. A lot depends on where the Germans seem to be doing the best. It won't always be in the same place. You can start placing your forts there in preparation and direct reinforcements where you need them. Then just try to get an many of you front line troops there and hope you have whittled the Germans down enough to make your stand.

[Moltke71]

The best you can do is to get out of developing pockets, leave some poor souls as speed bumps and retreat the rest as far as you can. Long retreats make a logistical nightmare for the Germans ala 1914 and 1918. The 1940 blitzes could only work because of the relative small distances involved.

[Stelteck]

Is it interesting to save tanks as soviet player ?

Due to all the tank lost in mechanical issues, maybe it is better to use them to covert the retreat ? Better a tank destroyed in battle than lost due to failure ?

[ChuckBerger]

The best you can do is to get out of developing pockets, leave some poor souls as speed bumps and retreat the rest as far as you can

No, the best you can do is stop the Germans cold along a line running from Narva-Luga, down to Polotsk/Orsha, then along the Dniepr to the Black Sea. Let the Germans bleed their panzers dry, counterattack lone panzer divisions wherever you can, assemble a few armies for a strategic push (usually from Polotsk westward to Riga, breakthrough and cut off AGN in the Blatics, and take Konigsberg or Warsaw by the end of September.

At least that's the best I've seen against normal AI.

Look, the AI will take heavy losses anywhere you make it easy for it to do so. Stack Riga/Tallinn/Odessa/Kiev full, add a major garrison, add a Zhukov taking personal command for the combat bonus, and watch 10K+ Axis troops slaughter themselves each turn for six turns in a row or more until they finally take the thing.

Get your troops into fortified lines behind rivers, 3 divisions per stack, with an army set to offensive posture sitting right behind them. When the Germans attack, they'll take heavy losses penetrating the line, and you'll be in an ideal position to counterattack the weakened breakthrough units with an offensive bonus army. You'll slaughter them.

The AI is particularly reckless with its panzer divisions. Counterattack lone divisions wherever you can, if possible surrounding and eliminating them. Even if you can't get pockets, German panzer strength should be down to 1/3 or less by the end of July if you focus on them.

Eventually German losses will lead to a tipping point where it will not be able to maintain a 1 unit/hex line everywhere. That's where you need to shove 2-3 armies, achieve a major breakthrough, and roll up the line whichever way you choose, encircling and eliminating pocket after pocket of Axis troops.

Yes, you need to pull back at the beginning, until you get your activations sorted out. But not all that far. The Dniepr can be held in the centre. Try a good Tsarist general in one theatre, a mediocre war buddy or some such general doubled boosted by Zhukov in another theatre, and theatre focus for the third. By September you should be getting 100% partial activation everywhere, and around 50% full activations.

[Moltke71]

True, well paid decision cards help. I thought the OP was talking about the first few turns. Your advice is good.

[Flaviusx]

German AI is much more canny about pushing bridgeheads across rivers now, btw. It'll cross with big stacks, 3-4 high, including infantry as often as not.

So the old trick about clobbering weak panzers doesn't work as well anymore. You're not going to stall them at the Dnepr. Not everywhere. You can still hold the lower Dnepr against the AI from about Dnepropetrovsk down, but it's going to get past it elsewhere.

I'm in late August in a playtest 1.03b game and have just about stalled it. It still hasn't taken Tallinn (has a major garrison + 2 BMD divisions) is south of Luga and Novgorod, and in the center line runs Kalinin-forest line west of Moscow-Kaluga-Bryansk and more or less straight south from there to about Cherkassy, and then hugging the Dnepr from there on.

[Remmes]

Thanks for the replies guys,

ORIGINAL: Warspite1
I'm not kidding!!

No offense meant. It is a viable strategy.

ORIGINAL: ChuckBerger
When the Germans attack, they'll take heavy losses penetrating the line, and you'll be in an ideal position to counterattack the weakened breakthrough units with an offensive bonus army. You'll slaughter them.

That's exactly what I want, but in my game the Soviets lacked the punch to achieve this. Probably should use the Soviet bigshots more as rush goalies.

[Maskirovka]

As people say - stream back, fortify behind key rivers to slow them down, blow those key bridges, and make a mega line forts in front of Moscow (now sure how viable Smolensk is in the new patches).

[dhhd]

I as well face a problem as the Soviets. I seem to be doing OK at slowing the Germans down, preventing pocketing, and building a line of sorts.

However, I am absolutely starved for PPs, especially considering that everything gets more expensive the more you use it when you're the Soviets. I don't have enough to build major garrisons, I don't have enough to make playing the Admit Crisis or whatever card it is that lowers the price for defensive posture worthwhile - because there's no point in spending the points on defensive posture when most of my armies are going to die anyway. Saving PPs seems risky given the chance of Stalin going paranoid. I get that organizational stuff is supposed to be the problem for the Soviet player, but building garrisons and getting extra reinforcements seem like the sort of thing that they were actually good at, historically.

What should I be doing to get more PPs?

Additionally, what should I be doing with HQs that have no divisions left?

[c00per]

The only defence for the Russians in 1941 is the Axis rail head.

[lancer]

Hi dhhd,

Soviet HQ's with no remaining subordinate divisions will automatically disband.

Cheers,
Cameron

[Jonathan Pollard]

ORIGINAL: dhhd

Saving PPs seems risky given the chance of Stalin going paranoid.

If there's a turn of yours where there is little or no risk of a major city being captured during the subsequent German move, that's a good turn to save PP. The major cities that you've already lost in previous turns don't count for Stalin's paranoia.

[ChuckBerger]

Yes, unlike the Germans who often have enough PPs, the Soviets never have enough. You have to make hard decisions about what to do.

Getting defensive posture cost down is probably not a priority; your guys will fight well enough at neutral posture, and increasing activation is more important.

Use early PPs to designate a priority front, have Zhukov do Zhukov things, shift a few armies to neutral posture, and drop a few major garrisons if you plan on fighting for any of the early major cities (odessa, riga, kiev, tallinn)

Then I usually focus on the card that improves activation and communication across the board. Hit it three times and your armies will be activating at least partially nearly all of the time.

Yes, saving PPs is a risk if Stalin's paranoia is high. Check it every turn to see how it's going. But you really don't have a choice, you have to gamble and save to afford the higher-cost cards.

And there are no easy ways to get more PPs. Kill German units, but that's easier said than done. Recapture cities, again not so easy. As the Russian, you just have to deal with low PP most of the time.

[WingedIncubus]

Also, choose your spots to counterattack. What the Soviet have is sheer number of units to use sparingly where it counts.

If the German player leaves Panzer Divisions near the front, or vulnerable in wooden terrain (which is bad for Panzers) it is worthwhile to attack there in mass from as many hexsides as possible. Odds are you wont win, but it'll destroy or fatigue as many Panzers as possible. There your Offensive Bonuses will hurt the Germans really bad.

What I like to do also where and when it is affordable is create Tank "Corps", 2-3 Tank Divisions of the same HQ together to to use offensively as operational reserve where the Germans are vulnerable, either to exploit holds in the German front or sheer attacking lone Panzer or Motorized Divisions. Yes moving them around risk a chance to lose some to breakdown, but harassing supply lines will force the Germans to detach some of its Divisions to guard his chokepoints. Plus, Panzers and trucks that happen to be destroyed will need to replaced.

[James Ward]

ORIGINAL: Drakken


What I like to do also where and when it is affordable is create Tank "Corps", 2-3 Tank Divisions of the same HQ together to to use offensively as operational reserve where the Germans are vulnerable, either to exploit holds in the German front or sheer attacking lone Panzer or Motorized Divisions. Yes moving them around risk a chance to lose some to breakdown, but harassing supply lines will force the Germans to detach some of its Divisions to guard his chokepoints. Plus, Panzers and trucks that happen to be destroyed will need to replaced.

Yes I try to do that also. Tank units from your initial forces that survive make very good attack stacks as they are in offensive posture and get some bonuses. The problem is having any survive . They don't last to long, maybe 2 attacks before there isn't much left of them, but they can cause some hurt.