BEF & The Netherlands

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rkr1958
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BEF & The Netherlands

Post by rkr1958 »

Situation 1. Allied impulse #4, S/O 39. As the CW player you have Gort and two CW corps on transports in the North Sea. Germany on their previous impulse DOW the Netherlands (who aligned to you), attacked and captured Amsterdam which was were you placed the Dutch corps. Rotterdam is empty and is still controlled by you. Would you disembark CW corps into Rotterdam? If available would you use a 4th CW transport to put Gort and a 3rd CW corps into France? Or would you just forget about Rotterdam and deploy Gort and the 2 CW corps to France?

Situation 2. You are the German player and you get fine or snow weather in the North Temperate for impulse #3 S/O 39. The CW player has Gort and 2 CW corps on transports in the North Sea. Would you invade the Netherlands without putting two divisions into the North Sea to take via amphibious landing whichever city, Rotterdam or Amsterdam, the CW player left empty? Would you just take a land and risk CW disembarking into the open city and deal with that later? Or, would you wait until you got the German airborne corps 2 turns later before invading the Netherlands? Would any of your answers change if the CW player had Gort and 3, instead of 2, CW corps on transports in the North Sea?
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Courtenay
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RE: BEF & The Netherlands

Post by Courtenay »

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

Situation 1. Allied impulse #4, S/O 39. As the CW player you have Gort and two CW corps on transports in the North Sea. Germany on their previous impulse DOW the Netherlands (who aligned to you), attacked and captured Amsterdam which was were you placed the Dutch corps. Rotterdam is empty and is still controlled by you. Would you disembark CW corps into Rotterdam? If available would you use a 4th CW transport to put Gort and a 3rd CW corps into France? Or would you just forget about Rotterdam and deploy Gort and the 2 CW corps to France?
Of course I put two corps into Rotterdam, and Gort into France. If I had another transport available, I would get another corps into France.
Situation 2. You are the German player and you get fine or snow weather in the North Temperate for impulse #3 S/O 39. The CW player has Gort and 2 CW corps on transports in the North Sea. Would you invade the Netherlands without putting two divisions into the North Sea to take via amphibious landing whichever city, Rotterdam or Amsterdam, the CW player left empty? Would you just take a land and risk CW disembarking into the open city and deal with that later? Or, would you wait until you got the German airborne corps 2 turns later before invading the Netherlands? Would any of your answers change if the CW player had Gort and 3, instead of 2, CW corps on transports in the North Sea?
If the weather were snow, I would not attack. Odds of a short turn are too good. If the weather were fair, I might try a combined, and hope that my division survives in the North Sea. (Heck, if I roll well, I might sink a CW transport!) I do not think I would take a land; a pair of CW corps in Rotterdam are very annoying.

All this assumes that the Germans set up for an attack on the Netherlands, of course; there are other possible plans the Germans could have done: quick crush of Poland, invasion of Yugoslavia, or even invasion of Hungary.
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Barbuesque
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RE: BEF & The Netherlands

Post by Barbuesque »



There's a great Fall Gelb walkthrough thread by Warspite on this forum. Rotterdam truly is the key to defending the low countries. You need to be ready to deploy 2 corps into Rotterdam at all times. Failure to do so makes a Fall Gelb strategy much more reliable and deadly.
AlbertN
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RE: BEF & The Netherlands

Post by AlbertN »

Just wait til the "No ZoC on surprise" rule is in effect!
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RE: BEF & The Netherlands

Post by paulderynck »

ORIGINAL: Cohen

Just wait til the "No ZoC on surprise" rule is in effect!
AKA the: "we have terrible axis players and need a way to balance the game so it will be more enjoyable for all" rule.
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RE: BEF & The Netherlands

Post by Centuur »

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Cohen

Just wait til the "No ZoC on surprise" rule is in effect!
AKA the: "we have terrible axis players and need a way to balance the game so it will be more enjoyable for all" rule.

We need to simulate the way countries were surprised in the first two weeks of war. Historically, all nations which were neutral were in a sort of "denial". Politicians and often the military too were not ready for war at all. The political and military shock of being invaded by another nation is something which is really astounding. Neutral countries simply refused to acknowledge the fact that they would become part of the war. Sure, they mobilized, but usually they did nothing to prevent spies from both sides to gather information on military positions and political occurences...
If one looks at the way the German invaded the USSR one sees the importance of this rule. German armored columns simply bypassed the Soviet defenders, leaving it to the second line infantry to clear them away in the first days of the war. So why should they stop in a surprise impulse due to a ZOC? That not what historically happened. Same with Belgium (the assault on the fortress of Eben Emael comes into mind), the Netherlands (the Germans simply overran the light division in Brabant, because they knew exactly where those units were located), etc. etc.

The surprise impulse doesn't simulate this enough, IMHO. This has nothing to do with balancing the game, but everything by making this simulation historically correct...

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RE: BEF & The Netherlands

Post by paulderynck »

Nothing to do with balancing the game - I agree. But a lot to do with imbalancing the game, unfortunately.
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RE: BEF & The Netherlands

Post by Centuur »

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Nothing to do with balancing the game - I agree. But a lot to do with imbalancing the game, unfortunately.

I don't agree. Some people say that light cruisers imbalance the game too. Or food in flames. Or Japanese Command Conflict, or Guard Banner Armies to give some examples. The way things work, IMHO, is that one has to consider giving and taking when optional rules are concerned. If I want to play with the No ZOC rule, what do you want in return?
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RE: BEF & The Netherlands

Post by Jagdtiger14 »

I agree with Paul. However, one of the fun and interesting things is negotiating what options to play with. Its better to negotiate BEFORE sides are chosen, but at cons that is not possible. So, assuming sides are pre-chosen: I separate options into two groups. Pro-Axis and pro-Allied, then assign values to each option (I might not even bother with certain options, and No Zoc would be one of those). Needless to say if my Axis opponent wants to play with No Zoc, first I will be surprised at the boldness and respond there are certain options not to be played with (including CL's, etc...), if he insists and I can see he is serious, I will extract a very heavy price.

I don't see GBA's or Food in Flames as being on the same level as No Zoc.

Situation #1 (assuming no or failed German sea invasion of Rotterdam): I would put one cheap corp in Rotterdam. You need to have some CW mass to move with the French line in France/Belgium. What the corp will do is pause the Germans for one impulse, and hope the weather turns. The next impulse the Germans will destroy what is there (perhaps costing them a flipped unit?). The following impulse Germany begins its invasion of Belgium. Gort and two corp goes to France (4th TRS). I believe in heavy CW commitment in France, but it is worth putting something cheap in Rotterdam.

Situation #2 (multiple parts): a) Yes to invading Netherlands even without the possibility of amphibious landing (although I set it up to give me two chances, I always assume the CW finds my CA's and sinks them...I never rely on it). I do not put two CA's with Div's out there all at once...one at a time depending on what the CW did to the first. On the 1st impulse I do a combined and get one CA+Div out there and see if CW sinks it on their surprise impulse. If it gets sunk, then another combined when invading Netherlands and try one more CA+Div. b) no need to take a land at this stage. c) I never wait for the PARA. d) I don't care what the CW does as far as its impact on me in the opening stages, but I do look for mistakes and opportunities.
Conflict with the unexpected: two qualities are indispensable; first, an intellect which, even in the midst of this obscurity, is not without some traces of inner light which lead to the truth; second, the courage to follow this faint light. KvC
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paulderynck
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RE: BEF & The Netherlands

Post by paulderynck »

My price for playing No ZoC on Surprise is to take Germany as my power.
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RE: BEF & The Netherlands

Post by Courtenay »

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

My price for playing No ZoC on Surprise is to take Germany as my power.
!

Sounds about right to me. [:)]
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rkr1958
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RE: BEF & The Netherlands

Post by rkr1958 »

I'm just not getting this whole German combined followed by an amphibious landing to take Rotterdam in Sep/Oct 1939 on the second axis (i.e, axis #3) impulse. So here's what I did ...

1. Perfect weather roll of 2 (fine everywhere) for the axis on their second impulse (axis #3).

2. The Germans take a combine and move two divisions along with all their 5 and 6 speed ships out into the North Sea.

3. The Germans have enough units in the west that "survived" (i.e., remained organized) after French and CW ground strikes during their surprise impulse to ensure that Amsterdam will fall. A 9 or higher means that this city is taken without loss and with all units remaining organized. There's a 72% chance of that. There's also a 15% chance that the Germans will lose 1 unit and a 10% chance that they'll lose 2. There's a 6% chance that all (surviving) attackers will be disorganized and a 22% chance that only 1 unit will be disorganized. So while the attack is not ideal it is guaranteed to succeed, that is Amsterdam will fall. The only question is at what cost.

4. After the fall of Amsterdam the odds on Rotterdam shift from +3A to +6A because there is no longer any allied corps next to the notional under attack. Forgot about the chance of both divisions remaining organize or surviving. All I want is for 1 division to survive and prevent the British from disembarking into Rotterdam. However, there's a 40% chance that both division will be eliminated, which keeps Rotterdam British.

5. So, for me to even get this 60% chance of keeping the British out of Rotterdam, everything has gone right. I got fair weather and the CW and French failed to find my invasion force in the North Sea. My problem is is that I don't like these odds and I've wasted fine weather in the North Temperate and the Arctic to finish off Poland just for a 60% chance of taking both Rotterdam and Amsterdam on the surprise impulse.

6. What am I missing here?

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RE: BEF & The Netherlands

Post by paulderynck »

You can attack a hex in concert with the invading units is what you are missing. One or more units in the hex where the black print 6-3 INF is in your first picture - can attack Rotterdam too. Better to invade with one less Div and move one more Corps.

You need some healthy air and/or naval gunfire support to make up for only attacking with 6 units.
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rkr1958
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RE: BEF & The Netherlands

Post by rkr1958 »

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

You can attack a hex in concert with the invading units is what you are missing. One or more units in the hex where the black print 6-3 INF is in your first picture - can attack Rotterdam too. Better to invade with one less Div and move one more Corps.

You need some healthy air and/or naval gunfire support to make up for only attacking with 6 units.
Oh ...
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rkr1958
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RE: BEF & The Netherlands

Post by rkr1958 »

The CW has Gort and 2 CW corps deployed to France. They also have two corps on transport in the North Sea. Even if the weather was fine and the Germans had their airborne unit, don't they still need to take a combined and conduct a successful amphibious invasion to make sure that both Rotterdam and Amsterdam are captured on the surprise impulse thus keeping the Brits out of the Netherlands? In other words, if the allies set up the Dutch corps in the hex containing the RP (i.e., the hex directly east of Amsterdam), how can the Germans capture both Rotterdam and Amsterdam without an amphibious invasion?

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Ronnie
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RE: BEF & The Netherlands

Post by rkr1958 »

I think I figured it out but it takes snow. So with snow the lake directly east of Amsterdam freezes over. This means that a successful Blitz attack against the Dutch corps deployed east of that lake results in a breakthrough, which allows German armor to move into an empty Amsterdam. The German airborne in combination with German ground troops are then used to attack and capture Rotterdam.

So the easiest and 100% foolproof way for the Germans to take both Rotterdam and Amsterdam on the surprise impulse is if there's snow in the North Temperate and they have their airborne unit. Otherwise, they need one or two successful amphibious invasions which are possible only during fine or rain.

Is this correct?

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Ronnie
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RE: BEF & The Netherlands

Post by Centuur »

It's even more easier. Ground strike the Dutch INF with every bomber you've got. You get 8 die rolls to disorganise it. Move corps north and south of the INF and put it out of supply. Next comes on the Panzers: two ARM and a MECH division will simply overrun the poor disorganised and out of supply INF and race into Amsterdam. Another INF than moves into Rotterdam. No combat, no losses, clean and simple. I imagine that from those 8 die rolls, one of those will be enough to disorganise the INF...

The Dutch INF should therefore be setup in Amsterdam, to avoid this from happening...
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rkr1958
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RE: BEF & The Netherlands

Post by rkr1958 »

ORIGINAL: Centuur

It's even more easier. Ground strike the Dutch INF with every bomber you've got. You get 8 die rolls to disorganise it. Move corps north and south of the INF and put it out of supply. Next comes on the Panzers: two ARM and a MECH division will simply overrun the poor disorganised and out of supply INF and race into Amsterdam. Another INF than moves into Rotterdam. No combat, no losses, clean and simple. I imagine that from those 8 die rolls, one of those will be enough to disorganise the INF...

The Dutch INF should therefore be setup in Amsterdam, to avoid this from happening...
Why do I always overlook the obvious? [&:]

A question on overrunning and the 2D10 CRT. With the 2D10 CRT, assuming I have more armor (or mech) are 7:1 odds after modification due to weather and terrain still sufficient for overrunning a unit? Or does the 2D10 CRT change that?
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RE: BEF & The Netherlands

Post by Centuur »

Overruns require a +16 modifier (including the Blitz attack
modifier) during movement.
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rkr1958
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RE: BEF & The Netherlands

Post by rkr1958 »

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Overruns require a +16 modifier (including the Blitz attack
modifier) during movement.
Thanks.
Ronnie
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