Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cut by promotion?

Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: The German-Soviet War 1941-1945 is a turn-based World War II strategy game stretching across the entire Eastern Front. Gamers can engage in an epic campaign, including division-sized battles with realistic and historical terrain, weather, orders of battle, logistics and combat results.

The critically and fan-acclaimed Eastern Front mega-game Gary Grigsby’s War in the East just got bigger and better with Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: Don to the Danube! This expansion to the award-winning War in the East comes with a wide array of later war scenarios ranging from short but intense 6 turn bouts like the Battle for Kharkov (1942) to immense 37-turn engagements taking place across multiple nations like Drama on the Danube (Summer 1944 – Spring 1945).

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mktours
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RE: Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cut by promotion?

Post by mktours »

ORIGINAL: IvanShuski


I'm sure this thread would have been a lot more constructive if it's main point had been phrased as something like "automatically promoted leaders shouldn't loss stats as it was not the player's choice to promote them", or "manually-promoted leaders should be able to recover their stats over time", rather than "my favorite WWII commander has lost perfection, OMG that can't be fair".
So you fail to see the good discussions in this thread? There are quite many good comments in this thread. For example, the 23 post by Sillyflower. Although I have different opinion with him, I appreciate the way he explains his ideas.
I use Model as an example simply because his name is the most simple. I am not a native english speaker and feel difficult to remember the names of Gernerals in English.
charlie0311
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RE: Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cut by promotion?

Post by charlie0311 »

Hi guys,

If you don't like the "diminished" leaders, you can use PBEM and reload the turn if you get a leader stat change you don't like.
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sillyflower
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RE: Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cut by promotion?

Post by sillyflower »

ORIGINAL: mktours

So you fail to see the good discussions in this thread? There are quite many good comments in this thread. For example, the 23 post by Sillyflower. Although I have different opinion with him, I appreciate the way he explains his ideas.
I use Model as an example simply because his name is the most simple. I am not a native english speaker and feel difficult to remember the names of Gernerals in English.

Thank you MK, but I don't think that I explained my thoughts well enough if you think we have very different views. Unless, of course, I have misunderstood you.

The ability to do ta task is a combination of knowledge/experience and the right sort of intelligence/talent. The importance of each of those 2 elements to the performance of task A by person X may well be different that for X doing task B, or Y doing task A. Indeed, the relative importance of the 2 factors in how well X does task A may also change over time. At least, these 2 factors are the ones that are relevant to this particular debate about ability ratings. IRL there are many others such as motivation, and probably that is 1 of the factors that plays a part in the morale rating. This difference is because is not an 'ability' or 'skill' but a state of mind and the extent to which X conveys that to others: for good or bad.

To take Model, my understanding of your posts is that what you do reaaly not agree with is not the chance of a point drop on promotion to 8, but the fact that he can't get back up to a 9. If so, then we do not disagree
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mktours
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RE: Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cut by promotion?

Post by mktours »

ORIGINAL: charlie0311

Hi guys,

If you don't like the "diminished" leaders, you can use PBEM and reload the turn if you get a leader stat change you don't like.
That is certainly an option. But doing reload generates cost of time, so it is not free. Also in PBEM game, it requires mutual consent by the two players to permit the reload.
mktours
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RE: Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cut by promotion?

Post by mktours »

ORIGINAL: sillyflower
The ability to do ta task is a combination of knowledge/experience and the right sort of intelligence/talent. The importance of each of those 2 elements to the performance of task A by person X may well be different that for X doing task B, or Y doing task A. Indeed, the relative importance of the 2 factors in how well X does task A may also change over time. At least, these 2 factors are the ones that are relevant to this particular debate about ability ratings. IRL there are many others such as motivation, and probably that is 1 of the factors that plays a part in the morale rating. This difference is because is not an 'ability' or 'skill' but a state of mind and the extent to which X conveys that to others: for good or bad.
I see what you mean. I agree that one’s ability, as well as one’s performance, is dynamic, rather than static. It would be nice if the game could perfectly simulate each leader as good as what he really is, but that is impossible at present. The rating of leader in this game, is therefore a over-simplified version, in which I believe many details of what your mentioned in your comment has been left out. Regardless of the ups and downs of Model’s career, when one answering a simple question: “Is Model a better general than Weiss?” The answer is easy, Model is a super-star in WW2, Weiss is not. So it doesn’t feel right when the two both having inf 8.

Suppose we erase all the names of the leaders and substitute them with X107,x108...the game remains exactly the same, it functions 100% as before. But the game experience of the players would be worse off, because it would offer less historical feeling. To handle a General named 'Model' feels different from handling a General with no name, because by doing so, one recalls all his knowledge and impressions about that particular person, what he did, what he was famous for...That is why the game data needs to be rightly reflecting the historical performance of the particular person, and when we talk about a historical person, most of the time, it is one's talent that matters. We didn't admire Model for his experience, we admire his talent, What he did in MARs and the late WAR gave him exceptional status from others, in talent.

If a inf 9 correctly match the impression and knowledge of the player about Model, then the Inf 8 is not, as to gaming, it doesn't really matter, but the game experience of the player is worse off (there is a mismatch and hence the player doesn't feel he were commanding the historical Model).

We could also examine this example: suppose the game use a dice roll to pop up a random event, in which the designer of the famous Tiger tank happened to be killed by air raid, and the Tiger end up less powerful, this event is possible and reasonable, yet it makes the game less fun, simply because it isn't match our history knowledge (what is the fun if the Tiger could not easily beat T34?). The logic is the same.
mktours
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RE: Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cut by promotion?

Post by mktours »

ORIGINAL: sillyflower
To take Model, my understanding of your posts is that what you do reaaly not agree with is not the chance of a point drop on promotion to 8, but the fact that he can't get back up to a 9. If so, then we do not disagree
I am thinking that the factors regarding a early promotion isn’t big enough to modify the rating of the leader, since the rating sysytem has been over-simplified, so I think it should ignore this detail. But I see what you and others are thinking about and acknowledge the points.
The problem is that even a improving from 8 to 9 is allowed, it is almost impossible, if I understand the game mechnism correctly, the higher the rating, the more difficult to improve it. So once Model’s rating got cut, he is done. Unless there is a mechnism to reverse the rating cut.
charlie0311
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RE: Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cut by promotion?

Post by charlie0311 »

MK, the amount of time to reload a save is only a few seconds, yes, you have to trust your opponent to use PBEM. I would prefer to play with guys I can trust. There are other useful things that can be done with PBEM/reloads.
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