Naval combat

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
And, I may regret it, but I'll offer to Skype and Screen Share with anyone that wants.

First, thanks for your generous offer. That said, personally I'm not really interested, because I am sure that I could figure out the editor on my own, but having messed around with it, I don't think it is worth the effort with the current interface. If TOAW IV has a better editor, I'll use it; if not, I won't buy the game and will write-off TOAW forever.

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
With well over 1,000 scenarios designed by users, it can't be all that difficult, right?

Well, I guess 1,000 sounds impressive until you consider that this game has been out for basically twenty years. I wonder how many of those scenarios have been developed in the last five years? GUIs that people might have tolerated 10 years ago do not pass muster any more.

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
I don't find it difficult, but I guess that comes from being familiar with it. But that is the same with any new software we get. Learning it can be frustrating at first. The current Editor could sure use some modifications that would make it better, but they need to be well thought out.

Of course any changes need to be well thought out, but with all due respect I don't think it is rocket science. Signficant changes need to be made to the GUI if this game wants to attract new players. Scroll bars? Being able to use a dropdown box to select items in the event editor instead of cycling through umpteen events?

In this forum I often get the feeling that this "revamp" is being developed to iron out a few bugs to satisfy the old-timers (fewer and fewer) rather than seeking to attract new players by creating something like a contemporary GUI. If this relaunch is being done on a commercial basis (not completely obvious), I think this is the wrong approach.

And I could be wrong--maybe the devs have made or are making all sorts of changes to the GUI and graphics, but with the current state of information it is difficult to say.

[Lobster]

The map editor isn't bad. The force editor is abysmal at best. The ability to change scenario parameters is kind of there, mostly not. The event editor is a nightmare. Of those over 1k scenarios most are several years old and/or for earlier versions of the game. Because people who have used this dinosaur and so know how to use it keep saying it is fine just fine it will probably never get better. If it does get dragged into the 21st century I will be pleasantly surprised.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: Lobster
Perhaps he was trying to help someone with the current editor.

Yes, I think he was...but he also didn't indicate that there would be, or even need to be, any improvements.

I was hoping to help him, but I also didn't want anyone who has never seen the game think that his confusion was the reality.

I obviously agree with Steve that the Editor isn't hard to use. Especially compared to the huge effort required to design a serious scenario. Most of the labor goes into the research and the organizing of that research into massive spreadsheets, etc. That task can take months. Compared to that, the few days, at most, needed to transfer the research into the Editor is almost trivial. And then there is the testing - which takes more months. The complete scenario design process is vast. The Editor part of it is only the tip of the iceberg.

There will be some UI improvements to the Editor, just as there will be to the Game. The Game will be the main focus of those improvements, though. The Editor is considered to be the domain of experts, unlike the Game.

I've mentioned before that dialogs now have scroll bars when necessary, and that applies to the Editor. Many dialogs now have sorting ability when appropriate. The Event Editor has been improved in that event cut/copy/insert operations are now possible and all are effected by buttons (unlike the old way of copying an event by clicking somewhere in the event pane - which often happened by accident - and then couldn't be undone). You can also enter an event number and the dialog will jump to that event.

Ralph was in the process of redesigning the Force Editor, but it proved so involved that it may have to wait for a subsequent update to be completed.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
With well over 1,000 scenarios designed by users, it can't be all that difficult, right?

Well, I guess 1,000 sounds impressive until you consider that this game has been out for basically twenty years. I wonder how many of those scenarios have been developed in the last five years? GUIs that people might have tolerated 10 years ago do not pass muster any more.

What difference does it make when they were made? The fact remains that over 1,000 have been designed. How hard can it be?

Scroll bars?

Already mentioned long ago.

Being able to use a dropdown box to select items in the event editor instead of cycling through umpteen events?

?? Do you mean the event effects? They already are selectable in a popup.

Anything else?

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
I obviously agree with Steve that the Editor isn't hard to use...

Actually I don't think that this is obvious at all. I agree that the map editor is more or less OK, but the Force Editor and the Event Editor are very cumbersome.

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
The Editor is considered to be the domain of experts, unlike the Game.

Sure editors are generally not as easy to use as the underlying game, but I don't think you should have to be an "expert" to use it. The OOB editor for the Panzer Campaigns series, from nearly the same vintage, is much easier to use than TOAW's.

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
What difference does it make when they were made? The fact remains that over 1,000 have been designed. How hard can it be?

You are suggesting that it is not a problem if no scenarios have been created in the last five years? Maybe it would be an indication that people are less willing as time goes by to cope with a twenty year old GUI?

In the history of the world, I wonder how many fires have been created by rubbing two sticks together? It is a perfectly functional method and people still use it today under certain circumstances. But that doesn't mean it is not tedious and that most of the world has not moved on to better uses of their time.

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
Anything else?

I guess you're asking for a list of all of the features of a twenty year old GUI that should be updated? Maybe you've already implemented most of the things I'd be looking for, but I was hoping that you would tell us what changes are in store, based on the input from/work of the graphics guy Matrix has retained for this project.

These posts are pretty much what I meant when I said that I get the impression that this revamp is being done solely to appeal to old-timers rather than to attract new players. All software development is about priorities, and I would understand if you said that changes x or y would be great, but we don't have the time/resources...but to deny that changes are necessary at all makes me wonder about what we'll get with TOAW IV.

[sPzAbt653]

Being able to use a dropdown box to select items in the event editor instead of cycling through umpteen events?

?? Do you mean the event effects? They already are selectable in a popup.

Not the events specifically, but a few other areas :

Red in the Deployment Editor.
White in the Event Editor for Formation Orders.
Blue in the Formation Report, again for Orders.
There may be others but those are three that I found quickly that require clicks as opposed to the Pop-up Menus.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
I obviously agree with Steve that the Editor isn't hard to use...

Actually I don't think that this is obvious at all.

It wasn't obvious that I agreed with Steve? [:)]

Sure editors are generally not as easy to use as the underlying game, but I don't think you should have to be an "expert" to use it.

If one has a shallow approach to scenario design, just what value should anyone place on their designs? Regardless, the Game is just going to get priority over the Editor for UI enhancements.

The OOB editor for the Panzer Campaigns series, from nearly the same vintage, is much easier to use than TOAW's.

That doesn't tell me anything. Why is it easier?

You are suggesting that it is not a problem if no scenarios have been created in the last five years?

That's just the natural life-cycle of games. It would be the case no matter how easy the Editor is to use.

...but I was hoping that you would tell us what changes are in store...

I did.

We've had years to gather suggestions about the Editor from designers who were intimately familiar with it. We're trying to implement the best of those suggestions. If you are not intimately familiar with it, how can you be sure your impression of it isn't based upon ignorance? (Reference your suggestion about events).

All software development is about priorities, and I would understand if you said that changes x or y would be great, but we don't have the time/resources...

Since that is always true, why would I need to mention it? Of course if we spend the next year coding the ultimate Editor, other - far more desirable - game features would have to be canceled. Personally, I'm chaffing at the amount of coding time being squandered on UI changes as it is. I would have far preferred that time to have been spent on features instead.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Not the events specifically, but a few other areas :

Red in the Deployment Editor.
White in the Event Editor for Formation Orders.
Blue in the Formation Report, again for Orders.
There may be others but those are three that I found quickly that require clicks as opposed to the Pop-up Menus.

Fair enough. But those item lists aren't as long as the event effects and triggers. And the Deployment options cycle both ways via left/right clicks. That might be good enough for Formation Orders.

[Lobster]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

The OOB editor for the Panzer Campaigns series, from nearly the same vintage, is much easier to use than TOAW's.

That doesn't tell me anything. Why is it easier?

Here's a shot of part of the OOB Editor screen for Panzer Campaigns Moscow 41.

[Lobster]

ORIGINAL: Lobster

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

The OOB editor for the Panzer Campaigns series, from nearly the same vintage, is much easier to use than TOAW's.

That doesn't tell me anything. Why is it easier?

Here's a shot of part of the OOB Editor screen for Panzer Campaigns Moscow 41.

Now, if you had something like this and you right clicked a unit it could bring up something like this where you could edit a unit. All of the formations can be expanded:

[larryfulkerson]

Here's a shot of part of the OOB Editor screen for Panzer Campaigns Moscow 41.

I see some up and down arrows on the menu bar......can you not just select a unit and move it?
That would be easier yet.

[larryfulkerson]

Now, if you had something like this and you right clicked a unit it could bring up something like this where you could edit a unit:

I like that idea a lot.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson
I see some up and down arrows on the menu bar......can you not just select a unit and move it?

The arrows allow you to move a unit within its current formation (ie, put it as the first subformation rather than the last, etc.). To move a unit between formations you can copy/paste and delete the original unit. Here I've copied a company from the 15th Pz Regt to its parent division, without deleting the original yet:



Each unit's attributes are visible from the OOB screen, and are easily editable:

[sPzAbt653]

I swear we went over this 6 months ago, but maybe not ... First, TOAW only has two levels, Formations and Units, so no need for all that expanding and collapsing. Second, that type of Editor is already available [pictured below], and with more features.

[76mm]

hmmmm, ok, but that editor doesn't seem to be available to me? This is what I get:



[EDIT] And the point of comments about the PzC editor are not suggestions that it's GUI be adopted for TOAW, but rather to point out that it's GUI is much more intuitive and simpler to use.

[76mm]

I drafted a lengthy response re Curtis Lemay's various points, but lost it when posting and cannot be bothered to replicate it.

I give up; if the devs think that the GUI and the scenario editor are great and in no need of significant improvement, good luck to them in selling that proposition to the gaming public. I have no idea what sale expectations are, so perhaps they'll meet whatever targets they've set. I'll withhold any purchasing decision until I see what's been done with the GUI but the general attitude I've seen displayed so far ("it's not broke so we're not gonna fix it") is not especially encouraging.

I'd also like to say that I don't agree with the proposition that the scenario editor should play second fiddle to the game; the presence of a more usable full scenario editor would make this game stand out from the many many other operational wargames out there.

[larryfulkerson]

I'd also like to say that I don't agree with the proposition that the scenario editor should play second fiddle to the game; the presence of a more usable full scenario editor would make this game stand out from the many many other operational wargames out there.

I got to be part of the project that converted all the older "classic" scenarios to the new format for version 4.0 and found most of the
scenarios to be just fine and some of them needed small tweaks to bring them up to speed. The change in the handling of the
theater recon value generated most of the small tweaks. That and places that needed a supply point because they were
overextended now.

But part of the conversion process was looking into the events and I learned a lot about how to use the editor and I actually like to
use the editor now. It's a LOT easier than previously and I'm modding the Barbarosa '41 to bring it into the 21st Century and
I'm finding small changes to the scenario are trivial almost and I've gotten into version 4.9 already adding Soviet strategic targets for the
Axis to bomb and more railroad engineers etc. It's a different scenario now. We're playtesting it as we speak.

EDIT: I thought maybe I should attach the B41 v.4.9 scenario here so you guys could play with it too. Just rename the
file as a zip and unzip it.

[Lobster]

I don't get that one either. Is this for TOAW4? I know the one I see that comes with the game makes it a major project just to page to a unit sometimes.

[larryfulkerson]

I don't get that one either. Is this for TOAW4?

I think I recognize it as the TOAW III Equipment editor. I used to have a copy of it and now, years later, I can't find it. I guess we're
both going to have to download it from here:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/a.edmiston/toaweqpedit.htm

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson
But part of the conversion process was looking into the events and I learned a lot about how to use the editor and I actually like to use the editor now. It's a LOT easier than previously...

Thanks Larry. Are you working with a new version of the editor, or are you now just more familiar with the old one?