Feature request

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witpqs
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RE: Feature request

Post by witpqs »

The pics come through fine, and I agree they show what you think.

But what does "spilt your HQ the right way" mean? What are the steps?

Unless there is a deliberate change that I totally missed (always possible!), the procedure is triggering a bug that MichaelM should be made aware of so it can be fixed.
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Lecivius
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RE: Feature request

Post by Lecivius »

Look at the amount of torpedo ordnance in /1 [X(]
If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
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Kull
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RE: Feature request

Post by Kull »

ORIGINAL: witpqs

The pics come through fine, and I agree they show what you think.

But what does "spilt your HQ the right way" mean? What are the steps?

Unless there is a deliberate change that I totally missed (always possible!), the procedure is triggering a bug that MichaelM should be made aware of so it can be fixed.

He's got at least 28 fragments, and the only way to do that is to load the HQ into a single TF with at least 28 different ships. And then, apparently, send them off individually to various bases. Definitely a bug.
Alfred
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RE: Feature request

Post by Alfred »

ORIGINAL: Kull
ORIGINAL: witpqs

The pics come through fine, and I agree they show what you think.

But what does "spilt your HQ the right way" mean? What are the steps?

Unless there is a deliberate change that I totally missed (always possible!), the procedure is triggering a bug that MichaelM should be made aware of so it can be fixed.

He's got at least 28 fragments, and the only way to do that is to load the HQ into a single TF with at least 28 different ships. And then, apparently, send them off individually to various bases. Definitely a bug.

Not necessarily a bug. But most definitely not WAD. See the linked thread I provided and the information that any LCU can store and distribute torpedoes.

1. The OP does not have 28 HQs. There is only 1 HQ, database ID #3029 located at Tarakan. The rest are LCU fragments and provide none of the air HQ benefits.

2. Fragments do not take replacements. However torpedo ordnance is purchased which bypasses the no replacements for fragments rule. Note how the replacements button is disabled in the fragments. It is also significant that no screenshot of the fragments TOE was provided.

3. The bug will be if the fragments can automatically replenish their torpedo inventory. I think you will find he has to manually purchase torpedoes to restock the inventory of the fragments.


To have a fragment with only 1 support squad but potentially hundreds of purchased torpedoes is the most "gamey" thing I have witnessed in AE for a very long time. You can well imagine what Symon or theElf would say if they this and the "justification" for doing so.

Alfred
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witpqs
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RE: Feature request

Post by witpqs »

I disagree about this not necessarily being a bug of some sort. Only the parent HQ 'fragment' is allowed to have torpedoes. How various child fragments got torpedoes in this instance is unintended whether due to a faulty line of code, a loophole in logic, or whatever. In generic terms it certainly is a bug.
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RE: Feature request

Post by BBfanboy »

ORIGINAL: witpqs

I disagree about this not necessarily being a bug or some sort. Only the parent HQ 'fragment' is allowed to have torpedoes. How various child fragments got torpedoes in this instance is unintended whether due to a faulty line or code, a loophole in logic, or whatever. In generic terms it certainly is a bug.
When the HQ was loaded on 28 or so ships with over 100,000 tons of torpedoes, landing a fragment from some of the ships would bring a supply of torpedoes too, n'est-ce pas? But as Alfred points out, the fragments should not be able to replenish whatever ended up in their torpedo inventory.
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witpqs
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RE: Feature request

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: witpqs

I disagree about this not necessarily being a bug or some sort. Only the parent HQ 'fragment' is allowed to have torpedoes. How various child fragments got torpedoes in this instance is unintended whether due to a faulty line or code, a loophole in logic, or whatever. In generic terms it certainly is a bug.
When the HQ was loaded on 28 or so ships with over 100,000 tons of torpedoes, landing a fragment from some of the ships would bring a supply of torpedoes too, n'est-ce pas? But as Alfred points out, the fragments should not be able to replenish whatever ended up in their torpedo inventory.
If so that is a loophole in the logic that handles loading LCU that have torpedoes onto ships.
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witpqs
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RE: Feature request

Post by witpqs »

I should point out that when you move an HQ with torpedoes by air, the torpedoes do not get moved piecemeal. They all stay with the parent until the fragment at the destination switches to become the parent.
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HansBolter
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RE: Feature request

Post by HansBolter »

If it's not a bug it sure looks like a serious exploit to me.

Sorry if calling a spade a spade causes anyone's shorts to get in a bunch.

How the heck can a fragment with ONE motorized support squad administer and handle the torpedo inventory?
Hans

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Kull
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RE: Feature request

Post by Kull »

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
How the heck can a fragment with ONE motorized support squad administer and handle the torpedo inventory?

They have a really, really, REALLY big truck?
RichardAckermann
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RE: Feature request

Post by RichardAckermann »

ORIGINAL: Alfred

[...]
3. The bug will be if the fragments can automatically replenish their torpedo inventory. I think you will find he has to manually purchase torpedoes to restock the inventory of the fragments.

Alfred

You are wrong. Every fragment has a fully operational torpedo generator, which does auto supply the fragment if I set it to keep a certain value. Though most of them are set to 1 since I limited the number of torps I allow myself to purchase per turn.

Btw. This workaround works even with very early game versions from years ago. (I tried)
C'mon people, you are not seriously gonna trying to tell me I am the first and only one to discover how to do this?

Makes me think I would make a decent beta tester.
Alfred
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RE: Feature request

Post by Alfred »

Then put up screenshots of the TOEs. Plus evidence that it actually operates during the next turn resolution and several turns down the track.  Don't overlook screenshots of your torpedo equipped bombers (unit display and aircraft data from the unit display screen)
 
Michaelm did tweak the torpedo ordnance, as can be seen in the linked thread I provided, and he may have introduced a bug.  Fragments are coded to never take any replacements and hence this would be a huge bug.  Why else do you think the screenshots you posted have no button for replacements.
 
It is rather disingenuous to say you have set the "fully operational torpedo generator" (which by the way is a meaningless term in AE as there is no such creature) to 1 because you want to restrict your purchases to 1 per turn when the inventory already has 9999, 100 and 86 in just three of your 27 fragments.  Only when those inventories reach zero will any torpedoes be purchased for restocking
 
Much more likely is that you are inventing phrases and being selective in what you are posting.
 
Alfred
RichardAckermann
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RE: Feature request

Post by RichardAckermann »

So you first call me a stupid idiot and now even a liar?
I have the impression you might come to develop a slight dislike for me.

I will provide some of the requested stuff as I can in a few hours.
Screenshots of the TOE and the air units that read "using torpedoes" are no problem.
Yet I have a feeling even then you will accuse me of fabricating the lot.

And for the excessive numbers, yes I used the full capacity of getting torpedoes the very first few turns for experimenting with the issue, but keeping to do this would be a game breaker. But since there is no way to "sell back"....
Alfred
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RE: Feature request

Post by Alfred »

Not just the static position of now but the position several turns later.
 
BTW you said I was wrong about buying the torpedoes yet you admit you did so when experimenting.  Just another instance of you being imprecise and flip flopping because you don't understand the concepts or want to win at any cost.  Plus what I said is that it would be a bug if the fragments can automatically restock.  No evidence adduced that what I said, contrary to what you are verbally me, is incorrect.
 
You had to experiment up to 9999, 100, 86 times to confirm what in your experimentation.
 
Alfred
 
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HansBolter
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RE: Feature request

Post by HansBolter »

ORIGINAL: RichardAckermann

I have the impression you might come to develop a slight dislike for me.


I already have!

The reason no one else has discovered this is because the majority of players who post here approach game play in an honorable manner.

I certainly hope you are doing this against the AI and NOT subjecting a fellow human being to this kind of a brazen exploit.
Hans

RichardAckermann
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RE: Feature request

Post by RichardAckermann »

Alfred, I can buy torps myself AND have them stocked by automatic, just as if it was a normal HQ.
You just need to know how to.
That is why I wrote I did so in my experiment, simply because it's the truth. I wanted to see the behavior under different circumstances.
You wrote you think I will have to add torps manually. That is not the case. I can have it done both ways.

HansBolter, if I was about to exploit this in any unfair way, I would have kept it secret. It is a bug, a massive game breaker. For me it only works because I stick to my own rules.
Anyone using this "backdoor" in a PBEM game will completely ruin it.
Please don't hit me for making that public. If I did not, everyone who would find out without shouting it into the public could wreak havok by cheating others.

But now as it is proven that this is possible, Michael MUST change the engine so that fragment units get their torpedo ordnance device deleted.

Lastly, here is the image of some fragment unit TOE and one airgroup that is using torps from such a HQ fragment.


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HansBolter
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RE: Feature request

Post by HansBolter »

Sorry for misinterpreting your intent.

Peace. [:)]
Hans

RichardAckermann
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RE: Feature request

Post by RichardAckermann »

Hey no problem. And don't worry. I am not going to reveal the "how to" until the bug is fixed. Just to make sure my experiments do not cause damage.
Alfred
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RE: Feature request

Post by Alfred »

1.  How to set up the TOE inventory is no secret.  It has been posted on the forum several times over the years.
 
2.  How to get LCUs to micro fragment is also no secret, it too having been posted many times over the years, the most recent occasion being Kull in this very thread.
 
With both #1 and #2 above being well known, there is no secret known only to you nor are you the only one to know how to do it.  Both claims you keep on repeating in this thread.
 
3.  The latest screenshots don't in themselves show it works as you claim it does.  They are only show the current turn.  Even that shows a bug with the fragments retaining a "yellow" TOE torpedo ordnance capability.  The bigger and much more serious bug needs the turn to be executed and the torpedoes used and replenished.
 
4.  That the fragments themselves have torpedoes is not necessarily a bug and why I said in post #44 that it wasn't necessarily a bug.  Any LCU can have a torpedo ordnance inventory.  Any LCU which becomes fragmented gets a share of what was in the unit before fragmentation.  Having torpedoes in a fragment is therefore not necessarily a bug.
 
5.  The screenshots you first put up show the replacements button on the fragments disabled.  Again nothing unusual about that.  Fragments always have that button disabled.  It would be a bug if the button was available.
 
6.  Those first screenshots showed just 3 fragments with torpedo inventories of 9999, 100 and 86.  As the fragments have the replacements disabled and those quantums far exceed what the parent unfragmented unit would have had on stock, there was no other way (unless a bug existed) to get them into the fragments but by manually purchasing them.  Hence my statement about the purchase remains correct and you confirmed it straight after you said I was wrong.
 
7.  There is still no evidence that the fragments will auto replenish.  Several turns need to be played to gather the info on that.  And if you have done that, you have not said so nor displayed the results.  Hence why my statement of you being selective in providing info remains correct.
 
8.  I said that michaelm tweaked it and he may have introduced a bug.  One of the things he did was to stop non TOE torpedo inventories going straight back to the "pools" (which means supply being returned).  Prior to his fix, this situation would not support the retention of torpedoes by the fragments as there would be no TOE torpedo ordnance to keep them there.  We don't know if his fix extends to your situation because you have not run several turn resolutions with air launched torpedoes consuming the current static inventories and auto replenishing resulting (assuming of course there is supply and the other relevant factors).
 
9.  It is very possible that all this is primarily a graphics bug and that the underlying code will not process the torpedoes.  Again why several turns have to be run with all external factors quarantined.
 
10.  The aircraft screenshot is only of the air unit display.  The aircraft data screen button tells what ordnance the aircraft will actually use (subject to #9 above).  It is this not presented screen which is the more important screen.  Plus we don't know whether the air unit shown is getting its torpedoes from another LCU located at Babeldoab or another base.  So again selective info presentation.
 
 
In summary the potential bugs are:
 
(A)  fragments having a torpedo ordnance button which can be accessed
 
(B)  it is a bug for any unit, be it a whole unfragmented or a fragmented unit, to receive any replacements (which is exactly what the auto replenishing quantum is) if the replacements button is toggled off
 
(C) where the replacements button is disabled that is a code imposed "no replacements" allowed situation and it would be a bug for a player to override it by accessing the TOE by inputting a new value.
 
(D) it is a bug if a fragment receives any type of replacements
 
 
A good beta tester provides the programmer with all the information necessary to set up the appropriate test parameters for confirmation that the errant behaviour is in fact so.  An average beta tester merely notifies witnessed aberrant results.
 
Alfred
RichardAckermann
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RE: Feature request

Post by RichardAckermann »

I did test the use of torps of the fragments. Everything works just fine. They use torps, they replace them. The only odd thing is, they sometimes do not use them if the TOE is higher than the actual supply.
The HQs do not have an ordnance device added to the TOE in the editor. I checked this.

You demand hard evidence?
But even if I would take the time to make screenshots of every thing you named and the combat and what-i-know-else would satisfy you, you could still impute I did manually add the device to the TOE of the parent unit or manipulated the screenshots or something else.
There is probably no way to convince you I tell the truth.

Despite you just don't want to believe it:
It are fragments of a normal air HQ.
They use up the torps in combat.
They replenish them by themselves if I wish them to do so.
I can add them manually.
From my opinion it is bug A, B (I can workaround the setting you see in the LCU screen), C and D.

Once the bug is fixed and a patch issued, I will happily give you and anyone else here a detailed step by step on how to do this.
You seem to have to do it with your very own hands to believe in it.

P.S. Is it normal that after sending a PM there is nothing in my sent box?
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