It all comes down to the Orsha line?

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GloriousRuse
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Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 12:51 am

It all comes down to the Orsha line?

Post by GloriousRuse »

Is it just me, or can the outcome of most games be determined sometime in July/August based on the Orsha line? I say this having played as both the Germans and the Soviets, but only against AI. For those not getting the reference, the rivers between Minsk and Orsha, with the south flank anchored in the marsh and the north flank anchored by another river and the woods. The AI, being a cheating bastard also gets free forts here.

It seems to me that the blitzkrieg always has to take a pause, however short, around Minsk. In that time the Soviets can start building those three - four division stacks that are hard to break frontally, and line them up contiguously to the point they can't just be pincered. An army or three in the marsh makes any German progress there costly at best.

It seems like if the Germans can break this line, either by getting to Minsk fast enough that they can hit the line before the wave of July-August center reinforcements can fully deploy and dig in, or by managing to carve out a few good stacks from the center to the point where the rest of the line can be dissected, the game is pretty much over. At that point the north front collapses and the Germans drive up toward Leningrad once they don't have to worry about their flank, the panzers can chew up anything that tries to make a stand before Moscow, and that's 2/3 objectives right there. It also helps stretch out the Russians in the south, to the point where the Germans can go back to chopping them up and encircling them.

If the Germans can't break it, the two center PGs are pretty much spent, their armies don't have the punch to grind through frontally and the north can be held indefinitely by the Russians with an anchored flank. Only the south is in contest, but since it doesn't have to worry about it's northern flanks, the Russians can stay heavily concentrated.

Is this everyone else's experience?
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WingedIncubus
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Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 2:17 am

RE: It all comes down to the Orsha line?

Post by WingedIncubus »

That's basically warplan Otto, the plan that Wehrmacht planners originally proposed to Hitler - burst into the center, then use PzrGr 1 and 4 to flank and surround Moscow. But Hitler decreed that Moscow was unimportant, and came with Barbarossa instead.

a) That's fine if the player takes Moscow or bust, but in the end if the objective is Rostov or Leningrad it will lead nowhere.

b) You can bet that an experienced Soviet player will not ignore that, and will strive to make the Orsha-Smolensk-Vyasma line heavily defended.

James Ward
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Joined: Tue May 09, 2000 8:00 am
Location: Baltimore, Maryland, USA

RE: It all comes down to the Orsha line?

Post by James Ward »

If you have extra PP's you can send a few unit up from the south if you take Kiev. This can help unhinge the first line at Gomel
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c00per
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Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 2:54 am

RE: It all comes down to the Orsha line?

Post by c00per »

I have played case blue thoroughly and attacking in this game is about patience. Slowly you build the wave of attrition and ride it to conclusion. From my limited experience with Barbarossa at this time it seems the same mechanics. Build attrition momentum, and be patient the line will eventually collapse then send through the panzer armies. Grand encirclements penetrating intact lines is not this game play. On a small scale sure there will be stacks of opportunities. My two cents is be patient and maximize the attrition damage done, and it will then be obvious when to envelope.
ChuckBerger
Posts: 278
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 11:11 pm

RE: It all comes down to the Orsha line?

Post by ChuckBerger »

Kind of, but it is possible to get over the Dniepr at Mogilev or Gomel (or both) before having to pause for fuel. Once you're across the Dniepr, the Russians have a lot more frontage to cover.

Or go north to Polotsk and flank the Vitebsk-Orsha line from the north.

Finally, don't underestimate the impact of the Panzers, properly prepared. Attack focus, plus blitzkrieg, plus Luftwaffe, plus perhaps a high octane card and/or a positive relationship bonus, plus refitted and concentrated troops, and the PzGs can smash through any line. The Russians can't be equally strong everywhere. Even in 1.01, it is possible through careful planning to use both PzGs together to take big chunks out of the Russian front.
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