Development
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- Rasputitsa
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Development
Any further development likely ?
"In politics stupidity is not a handicap" - Napoleon
“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon
“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon
“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon
“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon
RE: Development
I still have this installed on my PC and would like to finish at some point.
But I think these guys have moved onto greener pastures?
It's a shame too as they came so close.
Anyone know what they're up to?
But I think these guys have moved onto greener pastures?
It's a shame too as they came so close.
Anyone know what they're up to?
Man schlägt jemanden mit der Faust und nicht mit gespreizten Fingern !
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RE: Development
I agree.
The 'perfect' grand strategic WWII game does not exist. But I believe this to be the closest anyone has ever come. I'd obviously love to see further development, but as that's probably not realistic my dream is for one last patch, addressing but a single problem. Correcting the save game/forces maint. cost bug. If this was fixed, at least you could save a game and reload it. (The way it is now, it's not even worth continuing if you are Germany or Russia etc).
As it stands now, when I play I have to be committed to leaving my PC on for the 3 weeks it might take me to finish a game. (Don't get me started on game or PC crashes during that time...)
What would be great is if we could do a mini kickstarter kind of thing and raise enough $ to make a quick patch a viable proposition, so that it would at least be productive for them to consider doing the work. Barring that, would anyone in the community have the knowledge to advise on whether modding would be possible?
I'd hate to see this game just fade away. TOAW (The Operational Art of War) had a rabid fanbase that just would not let that game die. It would be great if there was enough interest for us to move (somewhat) forward. (Or at the very least fix the one issue so the game can be considered 'reload-able').
The 'perfect' grand strategic WWII game does not exist. But I believe this to be the closest anyone has ever come. I'd obviously love to see further development, but as that's probably not realistic my dream is for one last patch, addressing but a single problem. Correcting the save game/forces maint. cost bug. If this was fixed, at least you could save a game and reload it. (The way it is now, it's not even worth continuing if you are Germany or Russia etc).
As it stands now, when I play I have to be committed to leaving my PC on for the 3 weeks it might take me to finish a game. (Don't get me started on game or PC crashes during that time...)
What would be great is if we could do a mini kickstarter kind of thing and raise enough $ to make a quick patch a viable proposition, so that it would at least be productive for them to consider doing the work. Barring that, would anyone in the community have the knowledge to advise on whether modding would be possible?
I'd hate to see this game just fade away. TOAW (The Operational Art of War) had a rabid fanbase that just would not let that game die. It would be great if there was enough interest for us to move (somewhat) forward. (Or at the very least fix the one issue so the game can be considered 'reload-able').
- Rasputitsa
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RE: Development
ORIGINAL: Mantis
What would be great is if we could do a mini kickstarter kind of thing and raise enough $ to make a quick patch a viable proposition, so that it would at least be productive for them to consider doing the work. Barring that, would anyone in the community have the knowledge to advise on whether modding would be possible?
It seemed to be that many of the problems came with each succeeding patch after v1.01, as though the developer seemed to have lost the expertise to effectively work on the game. The game is easily modded and many of the problems can be fixed, or moderated, by small text modifications to the data files (mainly consts.ini files), or use of the in-game F12 feature to correct sudden changes in national PP levels. .
Much of this is discussed in the earlier forum discussion. One of the significant errors that came into the game was the failure to apply terrain effects to the combat resolution odds, this can be fixed with additions to the national consts.ini files.
Happy to discuss any mini mods which may help, but it does need manual changes to text in the game data files, I am no expert, but once you see how the various game effects are structured it is not difficult, just small text changes using Windows 'Notepad', or 'Excel'.
I am basing this on v1.05, which has the most features, as STEAM v1.06 introduced more errors ('Armour in City' effects), for which there is only a partial fix.[:)]
"In politics stupidity is not a handicap" - Napoleon
“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon
“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon
“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon
“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon
RE: Development
Not able to reply in detail at the moment (cooking a turkey dinner for the family), but wanted to mention the Steam release.
I was having problems with the Matrix versions of ToF prior to (and including) 1.05. I would get a crash, after which NONE of the recent saves would load. If I went back a few turns, I could get the game to load, but it would only progress to the same turn in which the crash occurred, and then it would crash again... I played a couple hundred hours and never got a single game to completion, ever.
When the Steam release came out, I never had the issue again, which was very heartening. But then discovering why I was going broke every time I reloaded a game became the next deal breaker.
As mentioned, I won't have much time to go into details at this point, but I would love any info on the best mods to use to correct all these issues, links to any relevant forum threads, as well as discussing anything I might be able to do to help going forward.
I was having problems with the Matrix versions of ToF prior to (and including) 1.05. I would get a crash, after which NONE of the recent saves would load. If I went back a few turns, I could get the game to load, but it would only progress to the same turn in which the crash occurred, and then it would crash again... I played a couple hundred hours and never got a single game to completion, ever.
When the Steam release came out, I never had the issue again, which was very heartening. But then discovering why I was going broke every time I reloaded a game became the next deal breaker.
As mentioned, I won't have much time to go into details at this point, but I would love any info on the best mods to use to correct all these issues, links to any relevant forum threads, as well as discussing anything I might be able to do to help going forward.
RE: Development
I found this comment from Iain interesting on the Slitherine FOG forum:
"The development team for FoG unfortunately left 4 years ago when Newrosoft took over and wrote the game from scratch. There is no support for the old version and hasn't been for 4 years. The only way FoG in its current form can continue is with Newrosoft. The version has been there for some time for..."
Given that there is significant amount of users that feel that TOF was very close to becoming "The" Strategic Game for WWII, I wonder if thought would be given to doing the same here - having another Developer pick up where Wasteland left off. Fix the remaining bugs / put in a few more features and re-release with some additional scenarios etc ....
How do such things come about I wonder?
Petition from the players? Internal initiative within Slitherine? Some Dev coming along with a proposal to do the work ?
"The development team for FoG unfortunately left 4 years ago when Newrosoft took over and wrote the game from scratch. There is no support for the old version and hasn't been for 4 years. The only way FoG in its current form can continue is with Newrosoft. The version has been there for some time for..."
Given that there is significant amount of users that feel that TOF was very close to becoming "The" Strategic Game for WWII, I wonder if thought would be given to doing the same here - having another Developer pick up where Wasteland left off. Fix the remaining bugs / put in a few more features and re-release with some additional scenarios etc ....
How do such things come about I wonder?
Petition from the players? Internal initiative within Slitherine? Some Dev coming along with a proposal to do the work ?
Man schlägt jemanden mit der Faust und nicht mit gespreizten Fingern !
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- Rasputitsa
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RE: Development
The potential is certainly in the game, as even in its present condition it can give a good game.
ToF is open to modification and many of the bugs/design issues can be overcome with fixes and tweaks, but the huge failure is the Editor, if only that was more effective and didn't introduce more bugs than it fixes. With a working editor this game could be the greatest.
The CTDs at start-up have been reduced and, on one of my systems eliminated, by using a reduced 'units images' pack. The stock images weigh-in at 90mbs, with a reduced set at 30mbs the CTDs at start-up in Windows 10 stopped. This doesn't mean losing anything, as the stock images can be improved and many listed images are not required, as the countries involved will never get to the tech levels some of the images represent and can default to the basic image for each type of unit and tech level if necessarily.
Less can be more, with fewer, but better quality images
This unit image goes with a Small Harbour mod, but illustrates that there are some good colour images available, but I am travelling right now and don't have access to all my files, more later.
GWGardner found that reducing the number of scenarios in the game folder improves stability on game start, by archiving Tutorials and scenarios you are not using, which will further reduce the amount of data the game has to load on start and seems to resolve the CTDs at start with some systems. It certainly helped with my Windows 7 laptop.
Most of the serious issues are fixable, but it takes work and constant adjustment to keep the game on line. I suspect that many problems lay in scenario design and the triggering of 'events', which cause the game to crash. There is a huge amount of work in checking events and game balance issues, which needs extensive game testing and is no easy task.
If this could be turned over to somebody, or group, that had the skills, this game could fly. However, it would be like 'World in Flames', there would be little to gain and it would have to be a labour of love, because the monetary reward would be negligible.
ToF is open to modification and many of the bugs/design issues can be overcome with fixes and tweaks, but the huge failure is the Editor, if only that was more effective and didn't introduce more bugs than it fixes. With a working editor this game could be the greatest.
The CTDs at start-up have been reduced and, on one of my systems eliminated, by using a reduced 'units images' pack. The stock images weigh-in at 90mbs, with a reduced set at 30mbs the CTDs at start-up in Windows 10 stopped. This doesn't mean losing anything, as the stock images can be improved and many listed images are not required, as the countries involved will never get to the tech levels some of the images represent and can default to the basic image for each type of unit and tech level if necessarily.
Less can be more, with fewer, but better quality images
This unit image goes with a Small Harbour mod, but illustrates that there are some good colour images available, but I am travelling right now and don't have access to all my files, more later.
GWGardner found that reducing the number of scenarios in the game folder improves stability on game start, by archiving Tutorials and scenarios you are not using, which will further reduce the amount of data the game has to load on start and seems to resolve the CTDs at start with some systems. It certainly helped with my Windows 7 laptop.
Most of the serious issues are fixable, but it takes work and constant adjustment to keep the game on line. I suspect that many problems lay in scenario design and the triggering of 'events', which cause the game to crash. There is a huge amount of work in checking events and game balance issues, which needs extensive game testing and is no easy task.
If this could be turned over to somebody, or group, that had the skills, this game could fly. However, it would be like 'World in Flames', there would be little to gain and it would have to be a labour of love, because the monetary reward would be negligible.
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"In politics stupidity is not a handicap" - Napoleon
“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon
“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon
“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon
“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon
RE: Development
"If this could be turned over to somebody, or group, that had the skills, this game could fly. However, it would be like 'World in Flames', there would be little to gain and it would have to be a labour of love, because the monetary reward would be negligible".
Well - I was thinking that with a bit of polish, new scenarios and marketing - they may draw some of the disappointed HOI 4 crowd.
But then again - they (Slitherine) seem to be all about SC 3 these days - which may turn out to be good.
Based on past history though (SC2), I liked the TOF system quite a bit more.
Who knows - maybe the Slitherine umbrella is big enough for 2 grand strategy WW2 games (or 3 if you count CEAW)
Man schlägt jemanden mit der Faust und nicht mit gespreizten Fingern !
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- Rasputitsa
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RE: Development
ORIGINAL: DonCzirr
"If this could be turned over to somebody, or group, that had the skills, this game could fly. However, it would be like 'World in Flames', there would be little to gain and it would have to be a labour of love, because the monetary reward would be negligible".
Well - I was thinking that with a bit of polish, new scenarios and marketing - they may draw some of the disappointed HOI 4 crowd.
But then again - they (Slitherine) seem to be all about SC 3 these days - which may turn out to be good.
Based on past history though (SC2), I liked the TOF system quite a bit more.
Who knows - maybe the Slitherine umbrella is big enough for 2 grand strategy WW2 games (or 3 if you count CEAW)
Unfortunately, I think the game needs more than a bit of polish, there are hidden bugs which come out in the scenarios, for instance I have a situation where I suspect the AI controlled US is reaching the point of declaring war, whenever the turn reaches the US, the game crashes. I think it is something to do with the triggering of a DOW 'event' in this scenario and is a problem with the scenario design, I can stop the crash happening by using F12, reducing the US diplomatic points so that there can be no US DOW. Not ideal, it keeps the game going, but the scenarios need a serious overhaul.
The developers created a great game system, but I am not sure that they had the resources, or experience to make the most of the game capabilities.
The polish can be in the many mods already produced, which can transform the 'look' of the game, as noted in the previous post, images can be improved and the game look really good.
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"In politics stupidity is not a handicap" - Napoleon
“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon
“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon
“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon
“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon
RE: Development
I really never had an issue with the way the game looked even without mods - the mods for me just make it that much better.
The polish I meant (perhaps a bad word) was to fix some of the internal features / editor etc)
As you said - great core system - needs some fixing.
I think a dynamic publisher and a capable Dev Team (picking up the reins) could re-package it / expand it and get it out on STEAM for wider consumption. On STEAM - perhaps intro as a expansion to the original and then the purchase / install of the expansion drives the fixes and enhancements for the core product already on STEAM.
Just idle thoughts though - Slitherine are not going to do this - SC3 is the favored child atm and they dropped this (TOF) hard even when Doom Trader was around it seems.
The polish I meant (perhaps a bad word) was to fix some of the internal features / editor etc)
As you said - great core system - needs some fixing.
I think a dynamic publisher and a capable Dev Team (picking up the reins) could re-package it / expand it and get it out on STEAM for wider consumption. On STEAM - perhaps intro as a expansion to the original and then the purchase / install of the expansion drives the fixes and enhancements for the core product already on STEAM.
Just idle thoughts though - Slitherine are not going to do this - SC3 is the favored child atm and they dropped this (TOF) hard even when Doom Trader was around it seems.
Man schlägt jemanden mit der Faust und nicht mit gespreizten Fingern !
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- Rasputitsa
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RE: Development
ORIGINAL: DonCzirr
I really never had an issue with the way the game looked even without mods - the mods for me just make it that much better.
The polish I meant (perhaps a bad word) was to fix some of the internal features / editor etc)
As you said - great core system - needs some fixing.
I think a dynamic publisher and a capable Dev Team (picking up the reins) could re-package it / expand it and get it out on STEAM for wider consumption. On STEAM - perhaps intro as a expansion to the original and then the purchase / install of the expansion drives the fixes and enhancements for the core product already on STEAM.
Just idle thoughts though - Slitherine are not going to do this - SC3 is the favored child atm and they dropped this (TOF) hard even when Doom Trader was around it seems.
I would also like to see the same treatment of the game, but so far the updates have introduced as many problems as they solve and even the STEAM version (v1.06) has added more errors, still we live in hope. [:)]
"In politics stupidity is not a handicap" - Napoleon
“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon
“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon
“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon
“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon
RE: Development
The editor. You have it right, there. IF the editor was user-friendly ....
Wastelands a couple of years ago stated that ToF would be revised with a new engine - well that's what I recall from my correspondence - but they have their hands full with Planar Conquest, no only on PC but mobiles. My wish is that they would be so successful with that, that they would indeed make an updated ToF a labor of love.
[By the way, I'm not at all disappointed in HOI4. It's very good in my opinion, if played 'realistically.' The UI and combat systems are excellent. The AI needs work.]
Wastelands a couple of years ago stated that ToF would be revised with a new engine - well that's what I recall from my correspondence - but they have their hands full with Planar Conquest, no only on PC but mobiles. My wish is that they would be so successful with that, that they would indeed make an updated ToF a labor of love.
[By the way, I'm not at all disappointed in HOI4. It's very good in my opinion, if played 'realistically.' The UI and combat systems are excellent. The AI needs work.]
RE: Development
ORIGINAL: gwgardner
The editor. You have it right, there. IF the editor was user-friendly ....
Wastelands a couple of years ago stated that ToF would be revised with a new engine - well that's what I recall from my correspondence - but they have their hands full with Planar Conquest, no only on PC but mobiles. My wish is that they would be so successful with that, that they would indeed make an updated ToF a labor of love.
[By the way, I'm not at all disappointed in HOI4. It's very good in my opinion, if played 'realistically.' The UI and combat systems are excellent. The AI needs work.]
I guess you can't blame them - Planar is the first title where they have a positive review rating on Steam so I guess they are making some money there.
Hopefully they make enough for a modest cushion and return to that labor of love you mentioned above.
Man schlägt jemanden mit der Faust und nicht mit gespreizten Fingern !
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- Rasputitsa
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RE: Development
I really hope that something happens, because there is so much potential, just to let it fade away.[:(]
"In politics stupidity is not a handicap" - Napoleon
“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon
“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon
“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon
“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon
RE: Development
Most stable version is 1.03.
That version has no bugs. Every version after that included bugs that were not fixed. Then team broke up.
This is much better than SC3.
I would gladly join the team to make this the greatest game ever.
That version has no bugs. Every version after that included bugs that were not fixed. Then team broke up.
This is much better than SC3.
I would gladly join the team to make this the greatest game ever.
- Rasputitsa
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RE: Development
I am using v1.05 as it has the latest additions, such as the air superiority overlay.
No version since v1.01 has applied the terrain combat odds modifiers, but this can be fixed by moving the text for these modifiers into each country_consts.ini file.
Taken with a series of text modifications a good game can be had, which for me have been based on the 'Fall Gelb' scenario.
I am using 'Windows 10' and, I don't know of it is just my system, but by reducing the number of images in the units_images folder by half and taking out scenario folders I never use, it has practically eliminated the CTDs on start. Reducing the amount of data that the game has to load seems to help.
I have also taken the opportunity to use a new set of colour images to replace the badly cropped B+W images in the stock game.
I still get CTDs during the game, which I think are caused by conflicts in scenario design, but I save often and can usually restore the game.
I have been watching the SC3 forum and I wish the game every success, but TOF works on a better scale and overcomes the lack of stacking by unit split/merge (modded to be easier) and unit exchange, using the SHIFT key.
One SC3 hex is covered by 4 TOF hexes, so in the area covered by one SC3 unit, TOF displays 4, which can represent an army of 4 corps of different types, allowing a real combined arms strategy.
For all its quirks, I think TOF has a better representation of naval action, although there is still room for mods to make it better.[:)]
No version since v1.01 has applied the terrain combat odds modifiers, but this can be fixed by moving the text for these modifiers into each country_consts.ini file.
Taken with a series of text modifications a good game can be had, which for me have been based on the 'Fall Gelb' scenario.
I am using 'Windows 10' and, I don't know of it is just my system, but by reducing the number of images in the units_images folder by half and taking out scenario folders I never use, it has practically eliminated the CTDs on start. Reducing the amount of data that the game has to load seems to help.
I have also taken the opportunity to use a new set of colour images to replace the badly cropped B+W images in the stock game.
I still get CTDs during the game, which I think are caused by conflicts in scenario design, but I save often and can usually restore the game.
I have been watching the SC3 forum and I wish the game every success, but TOF works on a better scale and overcomes the lack of stacking by unit split/merge (modded to be easier) and unit exchange, using the SHIFT key.
One SC3 hex is covered by 4 TOF hexes, so in the area covered by one SC3 unit, TOF displays 4, which can represent an army of 4 corps of different types, allowing a real combined arms strategy.
For all its quirks, I think TOF has a better representation of naval action, although there is still room for mods to make it better.[:)]
"In politics stupidity is not a handicap" - Napoleon
“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon
“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon
“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon
“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon
- Rasputitsa
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RE: Development
Here is a Fall Gelb scenario with consts.ini files text modified for a more realistic performance by each nation showing the fall of the Netherlands in turn 1 :
This is an early start 'Fall Gelb', Turn One - 1st January 1940, with historical evidence that Hitler did order the Western Offensive to begin in January 1940, among many dates which were cancelled for one reason, or another.
The German airborne division is modded to be available immediately, rather than waiting for the scenario 'event' which is attached to the capture of the Belgian fortresses. The airborne unit is used in the capture of Rotterdam, which is historical. The Dutch air unit in Amsterdam is exposed by air recon and then destroyed by airfield attack, which is also historical. Amsterdam is taken by a fast moving armoured force. Groningen is taken by conventional attack and the Netherlands is defeated in one turn, which matches the historical record.
The weather is bad in January, rain and snow, so it can take two turns to dispose if Holland, but with more realistic national command and control settings avoiding the tendency for the game to bog down in a more WW1 style. The Blitzkrieg works well against the Western Allies as there is no strategic depth to allow supply difficulties to take effect.
It will be different in the East where, although command and control mods will give the Axis an early advantage, rail repair modded to be slower will bring supply problems after the first major advances.
It takes a lot of work in editing and managing the game against the bugs hidden in scenario design, but the F12 key allows access to fix PP problems and move counties in and out of AI control, still leaving a good game to be had.[:)]
This is an early start 'Fall Gelb', Turn One - 1st January 1940, with historical evidence that Hitler did order the Western Offensive to begin in January 1940, among many dates which were cancelled for one reason, or another.
The German airborne division is modded to be available immediately, rather than waiting for the scenario 'event' which is attached to the capture of the Belgian fortresses. The airborne unit is used in the capture of Rotterdam, which is historical. The Dutch air unit in Amsterdam is exposed by air recon and then destroyed by airfield attack, which is also historical. Amsterdam is taken by a fast moving armoured force. Groningen is taken by conventional attack and the Netherlands is defeated in one turn, which matches the historical record.
The weather is bad in January, rain and snow, so it can take two turns to dispose if Holland, but with more realistic national command and control settings avoiding the tendency for the game to bog down in a more WW1 style. The Blitzkrieg works well against the Western Allies as there is no strategic depth to allow supply difficulties to take effect.
It will be different in the East where, although command and control mods will give the Axis an early advantage, rail repair modded to be slower will bring supply problems after the first major advances.
It takes a lot of work in editing and managing the game against the bugs hidden in scenario design, but the F12 key allows access to fix PP problems and move counties in and out of AI control, still leaving a good game to be had.[:)]
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"In politics stupidity is not a handicap" - Napoleon
“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon
“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon
“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon
“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon
- Ostwindflak
- Posts: 667
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- Location: New Hampshire
RE: Development
How does this compare to the other game this company did, Strategic War in Europe? I have that one and honestly, it stinks something awful. It was one of the worst purchases I ever made.
- Nimrod 9th
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- Location: Central MO
RE: Development
Same game just more of it. Same basic game play ... production ... moving units ... combat ... etc. Just more units, bigger map, more turns, etc. I disagree with SWiE "stinks something awful." It only stinks a little. I still find myself going back and playing it. My two favorite scens are German in 1941 game and Allies in 1943 game. I do agree it isn't "finished." The developer needed another patch or two. Doesn't have USSR production right (close but not there) and in a PBEM game discovered a Axis Norway convoy issue. Developer gave up too early. Oh, the AI in SWiE is a little better. I haven't played ToF much but when I do the AI doesn't seem to put up much of a fight. SWiE AI isn't great but seems a little better than ToF. Please keep in mind all of my comments and $1US won't buy you a cup of Star Bucks coffee.
- Rasputitsa
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RE: Development
Deleted
"In politics stupidity is not a handicap" - Napoleon
“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon
“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon
“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon
“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon