Pripyat Marshes and supply

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Iñaki Harrizabalagatar
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Pripyat Marshes and supply

Post by Iñaki Harrizabalagatar »

Hi
Historically the Prypiat marshes were skipped by both sides, since no large formations could operate trhough it because of the supply dificulties in an area with marshy terrain and very limited comunications. However in the game ther is no such restriction, in a PBEM game I am playing I have 3 Soviet armies operating in the marsh areas, I am piling soviet divisions in marshy terrain without any supply problem.

So, in the game the effect of the marshes is simply to penalise movement, but in a few turns you can move armies over there, threatening to cut the comunications of AGC. This kind of movement was simply imposible historically.

Eventually the same thing could happen in far north, as there are no supply limits to the soviet player to mass unrealistically large forces there.

My suggestion would be to place a stiff penalty to supply in those tough terrains, so that not only movement was difficult, but also operating through them.
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Flaviusx
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RE: Pripyat Marshes and supply

Post by Flaviusx »

The inability of armies to operate in these marshes is much exaggerated.

See Operation Bagration for a counterexample. Soviets had an entire Front (with mechanized units and everything) based in the Pripyet. And boy did that surprise the Germans.

The Soviet AI tends to love stranding armies here, and that can be turned against them. In a PBEM situation imo if you as the Soviet can spare putting 3 armies down there, the German is doing something wrong, at least in the current beta.
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governato
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RE: Pripyat Marshes and supply

Post by governato »

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

The inability of armies to operate in these marshes is much exaggerated.

See Operation Bagration for a counterexample. Soviets had an entire Front (with mechanized units and everything) based in the Pripyet. And boy did that surprise the Germans.

The Soviet AI tends to love stranding armies here, and that can be turned against them. In a PBEM situation imo if you as the Soviet can spare putting 3 armies down there, the German is doing something wrong, at least in the current beta.

but Bagration (which I agree, was a masterstroke) was launched in 1944, and by then the Red Army had good logistics and air superiority ... a very different beast from what it was in July 1941.

I am not aware of any significant actions in the marshes in 1941... I agree with IH that it should be hard(er) for both sides to support significant troops in that area.
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Flaviusx
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RE: Pripyat Marshes and supply

Post by Flaviusx »

Fair enough but imo this problem is self correcting in the patch.

You just can't spare the armies down there anymore.
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governato
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RE: Pripyat Marshes and supply

Post by governato »

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Fair enough but imo this problem is self correcting in the patch.

You just can't spare the armies down there anymore.


for now yes,..but one day (soon hopefully!) there will be more/later scenarios with this engine and map, so it'd be good to have the logistics *possibilities* sorted out, logistics is what sets this game apart!
Amicofritz
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RE: Pripyat Marshes and supply

Post by Amicofritz »

Maybe the patch will settle it, haven't installed it yet. But hey, it's July 24th, Minsk has fallen, and marching through the Pripyat marshes are 14 Soviet INF divisions and 8 tank divisions. But between me and Orsha there are still hoardes of SOV troops, often 3 hexes deep ...I've played many Barbarssa games, but this is just ridiculous, IMO.
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lancer
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RE: Pripyat Marshes and supply

Post by lancer »

Hi,

One of the reasons the situation is perhaps a little generous for the Soviets in the marshes is the German's perceptions, in '41, of the threat posed by Soviet forces there.

They (Germans) went to a great deal of trouble to ensure that there were sufficient forces on hand to counter any possible breakouts - north or south of the marshes. As it happened there were few meaningful Soviet forces there but the German Intel was adamant that there may have been very large forces present.

The game provides space for the Soviets to use the marshes. If the German player knew in advance that Soviet forces couldn't operate in the Marshes then it would make their task a lot easier as this wasn't knowledge that they had on the day.

Cheers,
Cameron
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Iñaki Harrizabalagatar
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RE: Pripyat Marshes and supply

Post by Iñaki Harrizabalagatar »

Related to what you say there is another question, to prevent Soviet infiltration through the Marshes the German player has to detach some units, but there are few German HQs so the units quickly get beyond the command radius, however the Soviet player has lots of HQs that allow him to play infiltration.
This is odd, because you end up with a Soviet command structure that is more flexible than the German command structure, obviously wrong from an historical perspective.
This is a general problem, not just related to the Pripyat Marshes.
IMO a solution could be to reduce the Soviet Command radius so that Soviet divisions have to reamin closer to their HQs.
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RE: Pripyat Marshes and supply

Post by mannerheim4 »

ORIGINAL: Amicofritz

Maybe the patch will settle it, haven't installed it yet. But hey, it's July 24th, Minsk has fallen, and marching through the Pripyat marshes are 14 Soviet INF divisions and 8 tank divisions. But between me and Orsha there are still hoardes of SOV troops, often 3 hexes deep ...I've played many Barbarssa games, but this is just ridiculous, IMO.

Agree, the game is not very good at simulating the first month of the war. Playing as the Germans is an exercise in frustration in trying to come even close to doing what the Germans did. And seeing three-deep stacks (and you know they are firmly entrenched) with high morale and full readiness doesn't bode very well for the Germans when you know mud is soon coming. The Russians do too well in the center and the north, but not as good in the south, which is quite opposite of history.

The refrain "it will work out later" is an admittance that the game needed more playtesting. The Russian AI is much better than the Russian High Command in the first few months, so that is a big advantage that the Germans don't get, either.

To me, the combat system needs work, but the logistics seems good (except in the Pripyats. That's ridiculous how many formations end up there.)
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RE: Pripyat Marshes and supply

Post by mannerheim4 »

ORIGINAL: lancer

Hi,

One of the reasons the situation is perhaps a little generous for the Soviets in the marshes is the German's perceptions, in '41, of the threat posed by Soviet forces there.

They (Germans) went to a great deal of trouble to ensure that there were sufficient forces on hand to counter any possible breakouts - north or south of the marshes. As it happened there were few meaningful Soviet forces there but the German Intel was adamant that there may have been very large forces present.

The game provides space for the Soviets to use the marshes. If the German player knew in advance that Soviet forces couldn't operate in the Marshes then it would make their task a lot easier as this wasn't knowledge that they had on the day.

Cheers,
Cameron

Cameron,

What sources do you have that state this? Everything that I have read indicates just the opposite. No one on the German side expected large formations to operate in the marshes! Which general or intelligence report stated an expectation that army level formations would operate in the marshes? The concern was that individual company sized formations would sabotage supply lines, not threaten to take Brest Litovsk!

And the combat system makes it very difficult to get them out of there since supply is not a concern for the Soviets.

Regards
mannerheim4
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RE: Pripyat Marshes and supply

Post by mannerheim4 »

ORIGINAL: Iñaki Harrizabalagatar

Related to what you say there is another question, to prevent Soviet infiltration through the Marshes the German player has to detach some units, but there are few German HQs so the units quickly get beyond the command radius, however the Soviet player has lots of HQs that allow him to play infiltration.
This is odd, because you end up with a Soviet command structure that is more flexible than the German command structure, obviously wrong from an historical perspective.
This is a general problem, not just related to the Pripyat Marshes.
IMO a solution could be to reduce the Soviet Command radius so that Soviet divisions have to reamin closer to their HQs.

Agree again. The units of the 4th Army end up out of command and cannot effectively manuever to attack, leaving the Soviets with the initiative and with superior terrain/supply situations.
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RE: Pripyat Marshes and supply

Post by Amicofritz »

Like Inaki said: "This is odd, because you end up with a Soviet command structure that is more flexible than the German command structure, obviously wrong from an historical perspective.This is a general problem, not just related to the Pripyat Marshes.
IMO a solution could be to reduce the Soviet Command radius so that Soviet divisions have to reamin closer to their HQs."
And Mannerheim:
"The units of the 4th Army end up out of command and cannot effectively manuever to attack, leaving the Soviets with the initiative and with superior terrain/supply situations."

So, I deployed 2 Army in Brest-Litowsk to stem the great Soviet July-August 41 Pripyat offensive (sic!) and realized that there's this abstract thin red line through the marshes, giving the troops severe penalties when crossing it from north to south. Which means that in effect I have to use one army from AGS to effectively stop the Pripyat drive ... Jeeez ...
I love the game, really love it, but this is close to breaking it for me.



Amicofritz
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RE: Pripyat Marshes and supply

Post by stormbringer3 »

I think that a possible solution would be to move that red line 1-2 hexes further south. Doing so would enable AGC to use the single RR line for supply and give it better combat potential in the marshes. You aren't able to fight the Russians properly because that line keeps you from getting the combat bonuses you need. If you cross it to fight you get the PP penalty, or if you split the attack with AGS units you lose the combat bonus.
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Franciscus
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RE: Pripyat Marshes and supply

Post by Franciscus »

Yes, I have found the same issue...
I have now a big pocket of soviet units in the marshes, but I have had to divert most of my 4th army and part of 2nd PG (AGC) and 6th army (AGS) to stem the soviet invasion...

With this, I was unable to drive to Smolensk...In fact, I am having to retreat to Orsha (end August...[:D])

This is just my third try (first with 1.02) and it's possible this is not always like this, but may need some balancing.

Let's wait for Vic and Cameron's thoughts and maybe fixes to this...

Regards
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willgamer
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RE: Pripyat Marshes and supply

Post by willgamer »

ORIGINAL: stormbringer3

I think that a possible solution would be to move that red line 1-2 hexes further south. Doing so would enable AGC to use the single RR line for supply and give it better combat potential in the marshes. You aren't able to fight the Russians properly because that line keeps you from getting the combat bonuses you need. If you cross it to fight you get the PP penalty, or if you split the attack with AGS units you lose the combat bonus.

Another possible improvement, perhaps in addition to the above, is to reduce the penalty for one hex across the line to zero. The existing penalty is unduely harsh for infantry operating in low supply, low movement areas.
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RE: Pripyat Marshes and supply

Post by Zort »

I would like to see the army boundary line moved one hex row south to the river line. That would allow AGC to defend better the movement of those sneaky russkies as they use the boundary line and river line.
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RE: Pripyat Marshes and supply

Post by mannerheim4 »

ORIGINAL: Amicofritz

Which means that in effect I have to use one army from AGS to effectively stop the Pripyat drive ... Jeeez ...
I love the game, really love it, but this is close to breaking it for me.

Ridiculous. Using parts of the 6th Army and nearly half of the 4th Army to maintain status quo in the marshes - since you will have a difficult time fighting units IN the marshes because of terrain modifiers and likely, be out of command and have only a few AP points. Seems the Soviets have the initiative here and can severely threaten the German 2nd Panzer Group supply lines. The more I play the first 6 weeks, the more I get frustrated with how the game turns out. Fixable stuff in some cases, but for now, I'm going to wait. Germans cannot use cards on turn one, low AP's to start, cannot move far enough to take key historical places, cannot detach units, Soviets too robust during the first few turns (readiness/integrity way too high), there is too much frustration at the tactical level. The logistics for the Germans seem right, the decisions are a nice touch (although the same decisions seem to keep popping up for you to decide yet again and strip away more PP's), the manual is outstanding, few bugs, but for me, the game as an historical simulation is broken.

All of this combined is worse than the terrible air power rules in the first two games...
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RE: Pripyat Marshes and supply

Post by lancer »

Hi,

From a German perspective the straightforward antidote to a Soviet thrust through the Marshes is to swing around and take Gomel. 2nd PG is pretty effective at isolating any big pockets of Soviets within.

Moving the theatre border a bit further south isn't going to make much difference as the Germans pretty much need to stick to the one half decent route through the marshes otherwise they get hit with Soviet units gaining their full adverse terrain benefits (+40% defense). This is in line with German Operational doctrine - they avoided swamp terrain like the plague.


The Pripyat marshes provide a lot of potential counter play situations for both sides and it's not something that I'd be in a rush to change. It also, as mentioned, keeps the Germans guessing, as they did in '41.

Historically Von Rundstedt (AGS) had fought through the marsh area during the 1916/17 campaign on the Eastern Front, and was well aware that operations could be carried out in these marshes by substantial infantry or cavalry formations. He was very concerned about his exposed northern flank and 6th Army was assigned to cover any thrust originating from here. He was quite surprised when no meaningful counter-attack occurred.

Here's a quote from my research notes.
Uman Flank (Uman Pocket or Uman 'Kessel'), 23rd July - 12 Aug

Potopov's 5th Army, separated from the bulk of Kirponos' forces, avoided decisive engagement and sniped at the Sixth Army from the relative safety of the marshes. German intelligence failures contributed to the Sixth Army's discomfort by inflating the enemy, never larger than twelve divisions, to nearly 20.

Cheers,
Cameron
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RE: Pripyat Marshes and supply

Post by ryan1488 »

In my few games so far I've had to reinact the battle of the bulge. Both my fronts are far ahead (center and south). But I've got this huge bulge protruding into my lines that takes most of the game to clear up.

I'm thinking I may have to put my command focus card over to the armies in the mashes so I can get enough mps to actually advance.

Either way it forces my advance to halt for months because my lines are so stretched.
mannerheim4
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RE: Pripyat Marshes and supply

Post by mannerheim4 »

ORIGINAL: lancer

Hi,

From a German perspective the straightforward antidote to a Soviet thrust through the Marshes is to swing around and take Gomel. 2nd PG is pretty effective at isolating any big pockets of Soviets within.

Thanks for your comments.

Given the difficulties of advancing past Minsk for the Germans in this game, that is easier said than done. The 4th Army, which would be helpful in this move to advance on Gomel (a sound strategy on paper) is tied up in defending the southern flank of Army Group Central. At least half of the Army is needed - and even that is difficult, because the AI will infiltrate a Soviet unit or two. To isolate these infiltrators and keep supply open, the Germans have a difficult time, because many of the units protecting this flank are out of command and don't get the AP's to effectively manuever AND attack such isolated Soviets (that don't seem to have the same supply issues)

Given the rate of advances in this game, I'm thinking Gomel is not going to fall until at the very earliest August.
ORIGINAL: lancer

Moving the theatre border a bit further south isn't going to make much difference as the Germans pretty much need to stick to the one half decent route through the marshes otherwise they get hit with Soviet units gaining their full adverse terrain benefits (+40% defense). This is in line with German Operational doctrine - they avoided swamp terrain like the plague.

Probably true, since neither Army Groups can take out the Soviets alone in the marshes. One Army Group will merely push the Soviets in the opposite direction, but never entirely out. Until the Germans are able to cut off the Pripiat road (which can support quite a bit of supply! I'm guessing that the alligators there keep the Soviets well-fed)
ORIGINAL: lancer

The Pripyat marshes provide a lot of potential counter play situations for both sides and it's not something that I'd be in a rush to change. It also, as mentioned, keeps the Germans guessing, as they did in '41.

Historically Von Rundstedt (AGS) had fought through the marsh area during the 1916/17 campaign on the Eastern Front, and was well aware that operations could be carried out in these marshes by substantial infantry or cavalry formations. He was very concerned about his exposed northern flank and 6th Army was assigned to cover any thrust originating from here. He was quite surprised when no meaningful counter-attack occurred.

Here's a quote from my research notes.

(Uman Pocket or Uman 'Kessel'), 23rd July - 12 Aug

Potopov's 5th Army, separated from the bulk of Kirponos' forces, avoided decisive engagement and sniped at the Sixth Army from the relative safety of the marshes. German intelligence failures contributed to the Sixth Army's discomfort by inflating the enemy, never larger than twelve divisions, to nearly 20.

"sniping" and "avoiding decisive engagements" is not the strategy that the Soviet AI uses in the actual game, as we well know. These are not the words of a general worried about a MAJOR offensive with the potential to take Brest Litovsk, with division-level units blocking supply! Every map I have seen of this time frame does not show 6 plus German infantry divisions holding down the southern flank of AGC due to a major threat from the marshes...

There are decisions in this game that would appear, to me, to handle the "sniping" of units cut off. I forget the exact wording, but you are given a choice in each Army Group zone to continue mopping up for a week, a fortnight, or a month. Given the scale of the attacks coming from the marshes, I don't think one would need to "detach" half an Army to keep these "snipings" to a minimum. Given the need for German infantry to break through to Gomel, these Soviet Marsh attacks tie down too many units to defending this flank, much more than historically.

Historically, the Germans had a hard time even with the Western Army pocket and cut off Soviets. However, it is at a scale below the game's, so it is not recognized, and on the map, it appears that there are no Soviet units. As it should be. The decision handles this abstract nicely. Units are kept from entering the game and are doing mopping up work. Couldn't this be done for the marshes, as well? It would seem that the Soviet threat and keeping it in check should be more a decision, rather than a major defensive work that ties down half an Army and a unit or two from 6th Army.

On maps I've seen, you have a cavalry division and one or two divisions tying down that flank. The game mechanics will not allow this because of ZOC and the fact that you cannot break down units in this game to regiments to cover the flanks. So perhaps you could force a decision (from each side) to detail several divisions to do "sniping" or "anti-sniping" details.

Regards
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