Axis Balkan Strategy & Setup Questions?

[rkr1958]

1. As the axis how would you setup in the Global War Scenario to accomplish what Froonp proposed below?

2. What would be your strategy and timeline?

3. What about Poland?

4. What about the West?

ORIGINAL: Froonp

E. INNER STRATEGIES WITHIN GRAND STRATEGY
Those are the wheels within the Grand Strategies wheels.

E.I. BALKANS
Germany has to decide what to do with the Balkans, and precisely, with Yugoslavia & Bessarabia. There are two broad choices : Align or Conquer Yugoslavia, in the aim of keeping Bessarabia or leaving it to USSR.
E.I.1. Align Yugoslavia
E.I.1.a. Points of interest of this inner strategy (advantages & drawbacks)
- Aligning Yugoslavia on Italy to provide Italy with a fall back Home country when Italy will be incompletely conquered. Aligning Yugoslavia on Germany is less interesting.
- Yugoslavian units won't cooperate with the Germany units, so they won't be as useful to garrison France for instance. They will be better left in the Balkans.
- Germany won't have the Zagreb City-based volunteer MTN unit (because Zagreb won't be Germany controlled).
- Germany won't have the Rumanian HQ, if done in 1939. Anyway, this is USSR who is dealing the cards here, and if USSR demands the Bessarabia in 1939, Germany has to choose whether still to follow this ploy or not.
E.I.1.b. Chain of events to follow to achieve this
Germany & Italy must control, one way or another, all countries around Yugoslavia.
- USSR demands the Bessarabia --> Germany accepts.
- Hungary & Bulgaria demand their share of Rumania --> Germany refuses.
- Germany immediately Declare war on Hungary, Declare War on Bulgaria (to prevent USSR from aligning it), Aligns Rumania (mandatory when refusing the Hungarian & Bulgarian demands).
- Hungary is dealt with immediately with troops prepared for this.
- Bulgaria is dealt by the Rumanian units first, reinforced by the victors of Hungary next.
- Declare war to Greece, and conquer Greece with the army victorious in Hungary & Bulgaria, and Athens with an Italian unit (to allow the Italians to align Yugoslavia).
E.I.2. Conquer Yugoslavia
E.I.2.a. Points of interest of this inner strategy (advantages & drawbacks)
- This allows for a follow up of aligning Rumania, thus denying the Bessarabia to URSS.
- This prevents the alignment of Yugoslavia on Italy.
- Germany won't have the Rumanian HQ if done in 1939, and if Germany tries to postpone this into 1940, USSR will demand Bessarabia before Germany can Declare War on Yugoslavia, leaving the case resolved by who has the Initiative in J/F 40.
E.I.2.b. Chain of events to follow to achieve this
- USSR did not demand the Bessarabia.
- Germany Declare War to Yugoslavia and immediately align Rumania.
- Next Impulse, Germany aligns Hungary.
- As soon as Belgrade is in German hands, Germany aligns Bulgaria.
- Now Germany can choose to declare war on Greece or not, depending on which Grand Strategy it is. Greece is a good supply throughput for Axis troops in Libya / Egypt, needing only 1 CP in the Eastern Med to supply the North African Theater (no CP in the Italian Sea needed).

Reference post: tm.asp?m=979605&mpage=1&key=&#

[Jagdtiger14]

Our games play out very differently than the way froonp has this outlined:

1. USSR conquers Bulgaria early.
2. Italy wants Yugo aligned...when time is right, invades Greece, takes Athens.

Twist to the above: With Bulgaria in USSR hands, pressure can be put on Germany to invade Yugo before USSR...ruining Italy's plan.

[rkr1958]

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

Our games play out very differently than the way froonp has this outlined:

1. USSR conquers Bulgaria early.
2. Italy wants Yugo aligned...when time is right, invades Greece, takes Athens.

Twist to the above: With Bulgaria in USSR hands, pressure can be put on Germany to invade Yugo before USSR...ruining Italy's plan.

How is the USSR even able to get to Bulgaria? They would have to go through Romania? If Germany allows their claim on Bessarabia wouldn't that prevent that?

[paulderynck]

Surprise invasion via the Black Sea with a Division on an SCS. Follow up with reinforcements on the TRS and they also have good ATRs to bring in more Inf divs or later on the MTN corps.

[rkr1958]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Surprise invasion via the Black Sea with a Division on an SCS. Follow up with reinforcements on the TRS and they also have good ATRs to bring in more Inf divs or later on the MTN corps.

So, the Germans setup last. If they were to spot this gambit by the Soviets, couldn't they deploy to DOW Yugoslavia and Bulgaria on their second impulse of S/O '39, then align Romania because of the DOW on Yugoslavia, use Romanian troops to conquer Bulgaria and use their own troops in Czechoslovakia to attack Yugoslavia? Possibly assisted by the Italians?

[Centuur]

That's exactly how it should be done. Germany doesn't set up aggressively against France in this case, but uses the spare units to attack Yugoslavia instead. In the second Axis impulse Yugoslavia is DoW'ed upon an Rumania is aligned by Germany, preventing the USSR from demanding Bessarabia. Next Axis impulse, Hungary joins the Axis, so Germany is able to send units through Hungary for an attack on Belgrade. The downside of this tactic is that Antonescu has to be build...

Even with bad weather, Germany should do this if it sets up against Yugoslavia, because the goal is to prevent the USSR from getting Bessarabia.

However, I believe that it is better for Germany to try to get Yugoslavia on the Axis side, since the two factories, a nice army and the fact that there won't be partisans appearing in that country makes it more valuable...

[AlbertN]

I personally perceive the Bulgaria DoW by Soviets a bit of a cheat - probably an oversight on the rules; I've read somewhere an interesting reasoning on that and why it should be house ruled to be prevented.
Some fan-site of a WiFFer.

Found the link:

http://capitalwif.wikidot.com/the-bulgarian-gambit

[rkr1958]

ORIGINAL: Cohen

I personally perceive the Bulgaria DoW by Soviets a bit of a cheat - probably an oversight on the rules; I've read somewhere an interesting reasoning on that and why it should be house ruled to be prevented.
Some fan-site of a WiFFer.

Found the link:

http://capitalwif.wikidot.com/the-bulgarian-gambit

Interesting. I also found that this group considers the DOW by Germany on Yugsolvia to prevent the Soviets from getting Bessarabia to be an exploit too. Reference: http://capitalwif.wikidot.com/the-no-bessarabia-gambit

In game turns the situation in the Balkans is very complicated. Wasn't that true historically too? I'm unsure what to make of all this?

[Jagdtiger14]

As the USSR player I always set up as if I will attack Bulgaria. If the German player sets up to take care of the Balkans and does as above, the Allies are very happy: 1939 US entry chit possibility, no Fall Gelb, no valuable Yugo and Bulgarian units, partisan possibilities in both, less resources sent from USSR to Germany (trade pact reduction). As for Bessarabia, its not that valuable (but not zero either).

As the German player...USSR taking Bulgaria...it sucks (Turkish/USSR resources), but I'm not going to react to it (-1? 1939 Allied chit). Even if USSR DOW's Yugo, fine, I'll send in peace keepers. Eventually the USSR is playing a dangerous game with units in the Balkans...they should expect to lose all of the ground units once Barbarossa begins...maybe air units if GS.

The main reasons I do the Bulgarian Gambit is to 1. reduce the pact resources (plus threaten Turkish resource), 2. get rid of the Bulgarian units. 3. perhaps force the Axis to do something concerning Yugo (if the Axis are strapped for units in France then USSR might DOW Yugo in 1940). 4. threaten Romania from the south as well as north when Bessarabia is demanded. If all the above are completed, I vacate Bulgaria of all units...maybe leave one cheap GAR in Sofia.

I don't see a reason why anyone should house rule the Bulgarian Gambit out. Historically, the Russians could have had a presence there...they actually had a very good relationship with Bulgaria...unfortunately WiF does not allow USSR to align Bulgaria (same for CW with Portugal). I am bothered by the USSR benefiting from aggression vs a pact 'ally'...then again there was the issue of northern Bukovina.

[paulderynck]

USSR can align Bulgaria providing the Bessarabia claim is accepted, but the Hungarian and Bulgarian claims are not accepted. This leads to another strategy: The Germans accept the Bessarabia claim and then not only deny the Hungarian and Bulgarian claims, they DoW them both (before Russia can align Bulgaria in - obviously - the next Allied impulse). German units attack Hungary and Rumanian units advance into Bulgaria and wait for the cavalry to arrive. Objective being take out Greece quicker, then align Yugoslavia, and have use of all the Rumanian units instead of half of them.

Incidentally, the designer has frowned upon Russia DOWing Bulgaria in RAW8, by giving them an additional pre-war Garrison unit, which allows them to ZoC all their coastal hexes, which in turn makes a Div invasion very risky unless playing with the No ZoC on Surprise optional (which is not in MWiF currently).

[Orm]

To me it does not seem to bad for Axis if USSR waste energy, and US entry, on conquering Bulgaria.

[AlbertN]

Incidentally, the designer has frowned upon Russia DOWing Bulgaria in RAW8, by giving them an additional pre-war Garrison unit, which allows them to ZoC all their coastal hexes, which in turn makes a Div invasion very risky unless playing with the No ZoC on Surprise optional (which is not in MWiF currently).

Where do you see the RAW8 units then?

[paulderynck]

They are not in MWiF. Neither are KiF units. I meant the designer of WiF, not MWiF.

[rkr1958]

ORIGINAL: Cohen

I personally perceive the Bulgaria DoW by Soviets a bit of a cheat - probably an oversight on the rules; I've read somewhere an interesting reasoning on that and why it should be house ruled to be prevented.
Some fan-site of a WiFFer.

Found the link:

http://capitalwif.wikidot.com/the-bulgarian-gambit

The following quote is from the link above,

ORIGINAL: Capital WIF Ottawa's premier World in Flames Group

The Bulgarian Gambit
How it works

1. Russia declares war on Bulgaria
2. On the surprise impulse, it invades with an INF division for free. No matter where the Bulgarian unit is placed, it will not be able to cover the entire Bulgarian coast. Usually the unit is ground-struck with Russia's generous # of bombers.
3. On the follow-up impulse, land with a big HQ like Zhukov and start moving to capture the entire country.


Why it's an exploit

What makes this tactic effective is the economic damage it inflicts on the Germans. Specifically, because of Russian aggression, Russia ships one less resource to Germany because they "aligned" them. This is clearly counter to the spirit of the rules since the intention is that Germany gives up resources for German aggression— not the other way round! Another clue that this rule is an exploit is that it relies on a specific optional rule to work: namely, SCS invasion and transport.

In addition, when Russia cuts the rail line— which is almost impossible to stop, the Russians will cut off the Turkish resource (or the Germans will be forced to ship it using Italian convoys). It's also fairly easy for Russia to capture the Bulgarian resource and start shipping it for themselves. All this adds up to an almost 3 resource swing for very little risk to the Russians.

Historically, it makes little sense since Bulgaria was considered to be in Germany's sphere of influence under the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and was nominally friendly towards the Russians as well. The idea that the Russians would launch a brilliant amphibious invasion of a friendly nation (and then be rewarded for it!) is preposterous.

My question, really confusion, is in reference to item 3 under "How it works". Zhukov, in MWiF at least, must be deployed to Asia or the Western/Central Pacific. The only HQ available to the Soviets in Europe during setup is Timoshen. The above gambit as written seems to be inconsistent with USSR setup requirements.

[paulderynck]

It doesn't say this happens in SO39.

[rkr1958]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

It doesn't say this happens in SO39.

With only 1 rail per impulse, it was take 3 turns to get Zhukov railed to eastern Europe and organized, unless the Soviet player was willing to burn an o-chit (which I doubt). That means Zhukov wouldn't be ready until M/A-40. Also, while Zhukov was on his 6 month journey from Siberia to Eastern Europe would seemed to me leave Vladivostok wide open for the Japanese?

Or, could Zhukov be transported by sea from Vladivostok to Odessa, or some other port on the Black Sea? Is that even possible? Would the transport be able to get through the Daranelles (Turkish straights)? The Suez Canal? If so, I guess that could be done in 1 turn and Zhukov ready in N/D-39? Still, wouldn't that leave Vladivostok susceptible to the Japanese?

[AlbertN]

It does not need to wait for Zhukov to be honest, once you have a port or a HQ ashore you can ship more units albeit slowly.

Also Zhukov can be deployed pretty close to the Eastern Front and you do not need it to fend off the Japanese in Asia (since your cities == your supply sources) - Zhukov can be deployed pretty easily closeby the Persian border for example at the eastern side of the Caspian Sea (Never checked where it can be deployed up north to the west - limit wise).

Heck conceptually if the Bulgarian unit is not placed in Sofia, the Soviets can land - and bombard it the first turn with long range bombers - and block it meanwhile they march into an unoccupied Sofia.

[rkr1958]

ORIGINAL: Cohen

It does not need to wait for Zhukov to be honest, once you have a port or a HQ ashore you can ship more units albeit slowly.

Also Zhukov can be deployed pretty close to the Eastern Front and you do not need it to fend off the Japanese in Asia (since your cities == your supply sources) - Zhukov can be deployed pretty easily closeby the Persian border for example at the eastern side of the Caspian Sea (Never checked where it can be deployed up north to the west - limit wise).

Heck conceptually if the Bulgarian unit is not placed in Sofia, the Soviets can land - and bombard it the first turn with long range bombers - and block it meanwhile they march into an unoccupied Sofia.

Wow, this game has so many subtleties how does one every learn to play it well?

[Jagdtiger14]

I would not even bother to send Zhukov into any operations in Bulgaria. I was kind of surprised to read someone would involve him.

I always place the Bulgarian unit in Sofia since ZOC from one unit can not ZOC the entire coast. Glad to hear Bulgaria gets an extra GAR in RAW8.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

It doesn't say this happens in SO39.

With only 1 rail per impulse, it was take 3 turns to get Zhukov railed to eastern Europe and organized, unless the Soviet player was willing to burn an o-chit (which I doubt). That means Zhukov wouldn't be ready until M/A-40. Also, while Zhukov was on his 6 month journey from Siberia to Eastern Europe would seemed to me leave Vladivostok wide open for the Japanese?

Or, could Zhukov be transported by sea from Vladivostok to Odessa, or some other port on the Black Sea? Is that even possible? Would the transport be able to get through the Daranelles (Turkish straights)? The Suez Canal? If so, I guess that could be done in 1 turn and Zhukov ready in N/D-39? Still, wouldn't that leave Vladivostok susceptible to the Japanese?

Not sure if rail distances are counted the same in MWiF as in WiF, but the discussion is about WiF and Zhukov can be there in one turn in WiF.