PBEM++ Sov Perspective (No Michael T)

[76mm]

Michael T proposed a PBEM game, so I thought I would give it a try. From what I saw in the WitE AARs, he is a very capable opponent, so I will need to be very much on my toes.

For context, I've played two quick games of DCB so far, one against myself as both sides, and one as Sov against the German AI on normal/slow.

When I played myself I (as German) totally botched the logistics, and as a result, I (as Soviet) crushed the Germans. When I played the AI, it ground me down--by the end I didn't have any troops between Tula and the south, the Finns were rampaging in the north, and the invaders were on the verge of encircling Moscow and Rostov. It was pretty demoralizing...

While I'm waiting for the first turn from Michael, I wanted to give my views on some opening decisions, and solicit your opinions.

First, I think that choosing the center as the main effort makes the most sense; I think it might be harder for the Germans to focus on it because of Hitler's proclivities. And while supposedly Sov armies arrive to their historic destinations (more on that later), I figured if I get more troops in the center it will be easier to use them in the north or south if necessary. So I intend to select the center again...

Whew, that was easy, because was the only decision I get to make!

What roles do I foresee for Zhukov and Kruschev? Zhukov is very useful, but early on my preference is to have him go around and blow key bridges. Ultimately logistics will probably decide the game, so I want to throw up as many obstacles as possible. Later, I'll circulate him around the front HQs to increase their initiative, then post him in the most important front for the activation bonus (see below for my thoughts on initial card choices). What do you guys think?

Now for Kruschev...very briefly, I consider Kruschev basically useless. While some of his cards are marginally useful, because of the escalating cost of using them, they very quickly become cost-prohibitive. Has anyone figured out any useful role for Kruschev?

For cards: my priorities are "release tsarist generals" (all three initial marshalls need to go), "give rousing speeches", "admit to crisis", and "reorganization". Basically the point is to increase activations and decrease the cost of changing to defensive posture. I never change any armies to defensive posture until the cost of doing so is down to 5 or better, zero.

I generally don't build the expensive garrisons early in the game--since those cities are goners anyway, I don't want to waste the PP; if I want to hold one of these cities for a while I will put in a couple of normal infantry divisions.

That's it for now, I welcome all of your thoughts and suggestions.

At various points I'll probably give my thoughts on various aspects of the game, if anyone is interested.

[budd]

very interested, looking forward to it

[Flaviusx]

Khruschev is good for shooting Marshals, mainly, which isn't something you do that often. Otherwise, you can use him to lower threat of good army generals permanently to zero and immunize them to some extent from Stalin. The escalating costs for actions indeed becomes prohibitive.

Basically he is a way to keep Stalin's paranoia down to a dull roar, but you're not going to stop Stalin from going bonkers every now and then. Stalin's gonna be Stalin.

He's not useless, but his influence in the game is subtle as compared to Zhukov. Who can blow bridges, give a theater an activation bonus merely by being there, and can permanently raise the competence of a Marshal via backbone chats. (2 such chats with Budenny turns him into a decent theater commander while keeping his reduction to threat.)

Don't bother with defensive posture until you get that down to zero cost imo. 5 PPs is half your per turn budget for most of the game, it's just too expensive. And I don't think you need to fire all the initial marshals, either. Dump Voroshilov, keep the other two. You can get them up to speed in due course with Zhukov chats. And you can cover two theaters nicely with focus and Zhukov without firing the marshals.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
Khruschev is good for shooting Marshals, mainly, which isn't something you do that often. Otherwise, you can use him to lower threat of good army generals permanently to zero and immunize them to some extent from Stalin. The escalating costs for actions indeed becomes prohibitive.

The problem with shooting marshals is that you might get someone just as bad--if you replace them with a tsarist, which only costs 5PP, you'll probably get someone OK.

I also used K to lower/freeze army general threat ratings, but frankly it doesn't seem to matter--Stalin's gonna shoot somebody. Anyway, I generally do this a couple of times, but once the cost is more than 4PP I'm not sure it is worth it, at least until the late game when I might have PP to spare (don't know, I haven't gotten that far yet).

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
And I don't think you need to fire all the initial marshals, either. Dump Voroshilov, keep the other two. You can get them up to speed in due course with Zhukov chats. And you can cover two theaters nicely with focus and Zhukov without firing the marshals.

You're right, I probably don't need to fire all three, but I think it is the most cost effective way to do it--the cost for releasing a Tsarist general is only 5PP and doesn't escalate (I guess there were a lot of them in Lubyanka!), so I think it is a good way to pick up a permanent 10-20 activation points for a front (depending on how good the new marshal is).

But good point about Budenny keeping the threat down, I will think about that before I decide this time.

While I use the Zhukov "spine-stiffenings" as well, they get more expensive and less effective every time you use it, so doing it more than once per front doesn't make sense I think.

And I really can't figure out the paranoia thing...sometimes the pre-turn report says paranoia is zero, then next turn he has a paranoid episode even if I don't lose any major cities. But frankly usually I don't care much--I get the activation bonuses up high enough (80+ points last game!) through marshall replacements and reorgs, and front focus, Zhukov, etc. where it almost doesn't matter what the army commanders' initiative rating is...

[Flaviusx]

Budenny is a one man Stalin pacifier. -6 threat is not a joke. (That's what he was rated at in my last game anyways.)

I think they go out for vodka shots and chase women or something.

[Speedysteve]

[:D]

[elmo3]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

...And while supposedly Sov armies arrive to their historic destinations (more on that later), I figured if I get more troops in the center it will be easier to use them in the north or south if necessary. So I intend to select the center again...

...

The manual says there is a penalty for violating frontal boundaries, but I'm not sure what it is for the Soviets. I've had units retreat across a boundary while playing the Soviets but have not been able to figure out the effect yet.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: elmo3
The manual says there is a penalty for violating frontal boundaries, but I'm not sure what it is for the Soviets. I've had units retreat across a boundary while playing the Soviets but have not been able to figure out the effect yet.

In my first game I moved three entire armies with HQs into an adjoining front and kept them there for many turns; many of the rifle divs just got a 0 PP warning, with HQs getting -1 PP penalty. I think the deeper they go, the more likely rifle divs are to get a -1 PP penalty as well.

One of the things I don't like about this game is the inflexibility of moving units around--whether where to send armies as they come in, transferring them after they've arrived, or filling them with divisions after they've gotten beaten up. You can say one thing about the Sovs, when/if they found a commander who could fight, they made use of him. In the game, as soon as one of your commanders becomes worth a damn, his army has evaporated and he is useless...

[76mm]

I've run a few tests with the beginning marshals; their ratings vary considerably from time to time, even with the historical setting. Budenny was -1/-9 and -9/-9 on two attempts; Voroshilov was -1/-7 and -8/-12. If they were -1/* I'd probably keep them around, but if -8+/* they are goneski.

The tsarist generals are also very variable; the first one always seems to be Rokossovsky, but his ratings are all over the map. In my first game, he was 26/10; in the two tests, he was much worse--+11/10 and +9/10.

Anyway, I'll take a look at the ratings when I get the turn back and then decide.

[elmo3]

I believe it says in the report you get with a new general that his initiative rating is based on 3d10 and his threat is 2d10.

One of the things I don't like about this game is the inflexibility of moving units around...

A card that allows you to transfer armies between fronts at some point after they arrive would be a welcome addition. Of course trying to transfer from south to north or vice versa is problematic without any strategic movement.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: 76mm
Of course trying to transfer from south to north or vice versa is problematic without any strategic movement.

Yeah, that's another thing. Rail movement was too easy IMO in WitE and doesn't exist at all in this game...I'm feeling kind of like Goldilocks...

[76mm]

OK, I've got my turn back...

First thing I did was play the "Rousing Speech" card to improve activations. This seems to be a one-turn benefit, but I can't see where it specifies that any where?

Next I looked at the marshals--Voroshilov was -5/-12, Budenny -5/-9. -5 seems like a lot a be burdened with, so I will probably replace both, but not sure yet. For now I replace Budenny and get Rokossovsky (who always seems to be first) with +25/+9. A 30 pt swing in activation for the southern front, I'll take it!

I have 5 PP left, I'll keep them for next turn, when I'll play a "Reorganization" card.

When deciding what to do with the troops, I have a couple of guiding principles...I have no idea if these are the best way to proceed, but for now it is the best I can think of: move as many troops as far east as possible. Usually this isn't very far on the first turn or two, but I try to apply three other rules of thumb--
1) where possible, put a buffer hex between my units and the Germans, so that they incur the AP penalty for moving into a ZOC;
2) unless units are in easily defendable, important terrain (a city behind a river, etc.), never keep more than one unit in a hex--spread them out so that the Germans have more attacks to do; and
3) obviously, where possible, put units in woods, swamp, cities, or hills, where Sov troops do much better.

This turn relatively few of my units could move (fewer than in my previous games), and Michael succeeded in encircling about 17 divisions, which is not great for me, but I guess it could have been worse.

For the troubleshooter cards, I sent Z to the 27A HQ, where next turn I hope to use him to blow the bridge at Dunaberg, then I'll try to send him to Riga (if I can get an HQ there) to blow that bridge. Then we'll see. K I sent to visit Rokossovsky at the Southern front to see what he can do there. As mentioned, I don't really know what to do with him...

I played the Garrison card in Rovno, in the south, and the Fortification card in the hex NW of Dunaberg, behind the river. I tend to play both cards in places where I'm sure they'll be encountering the enemy in the next turn or two, rather than far behind the front where they might never be used.

That's pretty much it; I made a couple of decisions and moved maybe a couple dozen units this turn, there's not much else I can do.

So far I've found playing the Sov side in this game less interesting than the Sov side in WitE, but it is early days, so we'll see.

[elmo3]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

OK, I've got my turn back...

First thing I did was play the "Rousing Speech" card to improve activations. This seems to be a one-turn benefit, but I can't see where it specifies that any where?

...

I just assumed the bonus was permanent but agree that it's not clear from reading the manual or the resulting report.

[Flaviusx]

Nice draw there, that's better than any marshal I've seen so far. By far, even.

Disagree with having Zhukov blowing bridges this early. I think it's better to get him in a theater HQ to help activations in the early game. Nor do I think the bridge you picked is an important one, the north is about the last place I'd be blowing bridges.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: elmo3
I just assumed the bonus was permanent but agree that it's not clear from reading the manual or the resulting report.

Yes, the report doesn't list this bonus on an on-going basis, that's why I assumed it is one-turn only.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
Disagree with having Zhukov blowing bridges this early. I think it's better to get him in a theater HQ to help activations in the early game. Nor do I think the bridge you picked is an important one, the north is about the last place I'd be blowing bridges.

Understood, you might well be right about the activations.

But if you do want to use Z for blowing bridges, there are two important factors:
1) You don't want to wait until the last minute, or they could be overrun; and
2) you can only blow them if a HQ and division are present, which limits the bridges you can blow (that's why I chose Dunaberg this turn).

[Flaviusx]

Also, the German side is the more challenging one here, steeper learning curve imo. More decisions, and therefore more points of possible failure.

I'm on my 3rd restart with the Germans and only now feel like getting decent at them. Finally managed to grab Minsk on turn 3 before the silly AI dropped a garrison on it, which seriously delays capture. And the Soviets don't really have any logistical worries in this game, which is a huge headache for the Germans.

[Flaviusx]

Thing is, based on my own Axis play, the Germans are almost forced to take a breather once they cross the Dvina anyways. PG4 runs out of gas about that time and you really need to move the AGN FSB up at that point. So there is going to be an operational pause in AGN regardless of bridge blowing. I don't think you get much from bridge blowing in this area.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
Thing is, based on my own Axis play, the Germans are almost forced to take a breather once they cross the Dvina anyways. PG4 runs out of gas about that time and you really need to move the AGN FSB up at that point. So there is going to be an operational pause in AGN regardless of bridge blowing. I don't think you get much from bridge blowing in this area.

Thanks, that's very good to know. I was thinking that because of the challenges for the German to get the logistics right, it made sense to "pile on" and cause as many difficulties as possible, but you're probably right.

I agree that the Axis side is harder to play; my guess is that when/if the German players master the logistics/decision trees, balance will strongly favor the Germans, but until that happens they will have a real challenge--the Sovs just don't have many levers to pull in this game. In my only game as Germans I totally botched the logistics and got slaughtered.

Michael is a very good player, but if he's good enough to have already mastered the logistics in this game remains to be seen!

[Flaviusx]

Other points where operational pauses are practically mandatory based on my own limited German play experience:

1. AGC after it captures Minsk. Fuel starts becoming a real issue at that point and Minsk is a good place to leapfrog the AGC FSB.

2. AGS runs into fuel problems rather quickly and probably needs to move up the FSB when it captures Proskurow. And then again once Kiev falls. This is why I think the first real place to be blowing bridges is the southern Dnepr.

Very different feel from WITE where the panzers can zip around like crazy. I actually think this game does a better job on logistics than WITE for the Axis. Feels much more constraining.