A small rant

[Xilana]

I'll start off by stating this is not an attempt to set off a range war, just my honest feelings regarding this game.

The second world war was fought on the principal of Germany first, Japan second. When we see AARs occurring where Hawaii is invaded, or even better the North American continent invaded the game loses credibility in that there would be a paradigm shift to Japan first and Germany second with a marked increase in forces diverted to the Pacific/West Coast theater. These strategies would in effect become suicidal.

I understand that the game is designed to provide ways for Japan to win, but it becomes a tedious affair when the game enters the realm of alternative history novels. It would be a credit to this simulation if it were balanced in such a way that realistic r+d as well as tactical strategies were the norm, as opposed to magically allowing Japan to overrun China despite the inability to do so in reality, make all the correct planes early, and invade places they never would have without paying severe penalties.

My apologies for the rant, I'm just getting annoyed at the recent strategy run of ignoring the Japanese strategic objectives that the war was based upon.

[Jorge_Stanbury]

The AI will never try to invade the West coast, and if you are playing PBEM, you can discuss with your opponent if you wish the game to be more or less historical.

And a Japanese player will face significant consequences if he decides to invade North America. Most people that do it are veteran players that want to get a new challenge, it might not be advisable, but it is certainly fun.

I agree with you on China... which is not the games' forte. Thanksfully this is a secondary theatre at most.

With regards to R&D... no:
there are 2 game options PDU "on/ off" and Realistic R&D "on/ off"
if you play with PDU off and realistc R&D, then the game will force you to relatively historical paths for plane upgrades.

[atheory]

It's all good. I have found there are no perfect strategy games that cover ww2. WITP comes the closest to my perfect love child of one. There are lots of options open to both sides and if you throw out the historical book, the game really becomes something worth exploring.

If Japan is invading Hawaii, that means he isn't invading some where else. The allied player could have his carrier fleets defending hawaii/west coast. use intel reports, use subs and PBY for scouting ahead. etc.etc.. or landings are successful, blockade hawaii and starve his troops, and later liberate the islands.

The beautiful thing about WITP in my view is the amount of open-ended options available.

I do enjoy linked based campaign games, and I think you would too, but there just isn't really any good ones out there. they are usually too arcade like imho.

You will find players here that have an attitude towards realism, just seek them out in the opponents wanted section. House rules and what not are available to mitigate some gamey stuff you might find in AARs

[RogerJNeilson]

When you are going to go into a PBEM game you really need to discuss at some length your view of how you want to play the game with any prospective opponent. My two regular opponents have been my opponents since the game was released - the original WITP that is, I have seen other games close down quite early on becuase the expectation of the style of the game is not shared. Given the immense time spent on a game you need to be sure the opponent shares your views, otherwise it will end in a messy WITP 'divorce'.

Roger

[paradigmblue]

There are many players who would agree with you. Those players primarily want to play WitP:AE as a simulation of the war as it occurred, without it expanding to non-historical bounds. If that is the game you want to play, that's fantastic. You should play the game in the way that brings you the most satisfaction and enjoyment.

However, there are many other players that enjoy the what-if factor of the game that brings it outside of those historical constraints, whether that be in a stock game where the Japanese player makes moves that would not be plausible historically or in a mod where the combatants are given non-historical capabilities. If that's the game they want to play, that's fantastic too. They should play the game in the way that brings them the most satisfaction and enjoyment.

What I don't like seeing is when people try to dictate a "right" or "wrong" way to play the game. Everyone has different tastes in what they're looking for out of a wargame, and what brings one person enjoyment won't be another's cup of tea. The trick here is to make sure that in selecting a PBEM opponent that they have roughly the same outlook on the game as you do.

Personally, as primarily an allied player (General Patton can attest to how poor I am at playing Japan!), part of what I enjoy about the game is the very thing that you don't like - the capability of Japan to make gains that were not possible historically. It brings a tenseness to the experience that I enjoy, where every move I make I have to wonder how far the Japanese player is going to go, and how I can try and prevent it or make it painful for them to do so.

When you see a Japanese player threaten the West Coast or invade the Hawaiian islands and think "tedious", I think "wow, it's really neat that they were able to use Japan's OOB to accomplish that objective". In short, to each their own.

[crsutton]

The American first policy was a loose policy at best. During the first year of the war the bulk of American resources were sent to the Pacific. After the heavy naval losses in the Guadalcanal campaign a lot of American ships were shifted into the Pacific theater to fill the holes. And once the American effort began to steam roll in 1944, it was pretty had to turn off the faucet and the Pacific theater got plenty of resources in spite of the fact that Germany was still putting up a good fight. But yes, you are right, if there were Japanese troops in India, Australia or the Hawaiian Islands-even more resources than we see in the game would have been diverted to the Pacific.

Your a little late to the party though, this rant was getting plenty of air play seven years ago. [;)]

[Zorch]

Can I make my own 'small rant'?

I resent having to scroll all the way down the forum page to get to the WitP-AE section. Look at all the 'New Releases' that have no activity at all. Let's petition Matrix to move WitP-AE up to its rightful place at the top! [;)]

I now return this thread to its topic. [:D]

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: venividivici10044a
My apologies for the rant, I'm just getting annoyed at the recent strategy run of ignoring the Japanese strategic objectives that the war was based upon.

In my game versus Jocke, I picked up from Olorin after a masterful opening.[&o]

To say he ignored Japanese strategic objectives is to miss the boat completely. The SRA was conquered as was Magwe. And conquered very early and on a ruthless time schedule.

There is only one game I am aware of in pbem that North America was invaded, and that of course turn out very badly for the Empire. Beer made me do it.[:D]

Pax Mondo has an AI game where he activated the emergency Allied forces for North America, and he greatly rues that day -- it was an invasion too far.

There are now 2 games that I know of, in pbem currently, where Pearl has fallen. 2 out of how many? Nobody that I am aware of has taken all of India. I can think of several where the invasion of Pearl lost the game for Japan, and not all that far back in history Pearl was deemed invincible.

I can think of one game with an early invasion of Soviets (I mean really early).

I am aware of 2, two, Japanese auto-victories.

You should read Captain Cruft's excellent AAR about a Hive defense of Japan which is also a strategy/tactic that JFB's pursue. Are you upset about that style of play too?

Another game, the GreyJoy/Radar classic has GreyJoy invading Hokkaido despite being trounced everywhere else in the game by Japan.

Methinks you protest too much. [;)] Relax, have fun and find the opponent that matches your wishes, but don't begrudge others their fun.

[sfatula]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
In my game versus Jocke, I picked up from Olorin after a masterful opening.[&o]

To say he ignored Japanese strategic objectives is to miss the boat completely. The SRA was conquered as was Magwe. And conquered very early and on a ruthless time schedule.

There are now 2 games that I know of, in pbem currently, where Pearl has fallen. 2 out of how many? Nobody that I am aware of has taken all of India. I can think of several where the invasion of Pearl lost the game for Japan, and not all that far back in history Pearl was deemed invincible.

I think Pearl and N. America are both the Olorin pickup by you, right? Been following that AAR, far from over, quite exciting actually, I look forward to almost daily reading and posts. You are playing the Japanese side. But it was quite the opening!

Only 2 Japanese auto victories!? Doesn't sound very likely then. Even with Olorins great opening, may still not happen. So, 2 out of countless games, doesn't seem that far fetched. Take a few key decisions in the actual war, and, a remove a little luck at Midway (and a bad radio), and, the war (while it would have had the same ending) could have had quite a different timetable. Only takes a few key decisions here or there and the war could have been drastically changed. Either direction. So, a better Japanese game player should be able to outdo a weak Allied player. And vice versa. Nothing wrong with that.

When I bought the game, I thought it was important that each side had a roughly equal chance of "winning", being defined as the official rule victory. The more I read and play, I don't think so any more. It's about the game and enjoyment, not, some victory condition. I definitely agree with the comments and advice given to discuss the objectives and goals of playing the game via PBEM with the opponent beforehand, agree on some rules, etc. Before I ever play a campaign, I will spend a lot of time on this to make sure we are aligned. As they said, who would want to pay for years only to have one player quite over a disagreement. And, while I would always be a Jap player, I sure understand how it's bad for the Allied player when his side gets demolished for a while, and then the other guy quits before the Allied player can have his fun!

[Tejszd]

Definitely not a new discussion for this game or others (ex. CC Cross of Iron or WITE) of history vs game balance.

COI - you tried to keep your troops alive while killing as many as possible but you always ended up attacking or defending in Berlin. For many that made the campaign game unenjoyable.

A game that can follow history and have options (for me that could of happened) which allows each player/side actually win makes for a good game and sim.

WITE tries to recreate history by giving the Germans a starting bonus, then the Russians a 1st winter advantage and then lowers/raises morale as the years go by for each side regardless of how the war is going so it gets criticized. But against the AI or with really unbalanced players the Germans might find a way to have a chance to win. Which then causes another group to criticize it.....

So I do not mind at all that this game has options that can be turned on or off so the player can control Japanese production and pick which planes to develop or try to develop early.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: sfatula

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
In my game versus Jocke, I picked up from Olorin after a masterful opening.[&o]

To say he ignored Japanese strategic objectives is to miss the boat completely. The SRA was conquered as was Magwe. And conquered very early and on a ruthless time schedule.

There are now 2 games that I know of, in pbem currently, where Pearl has fallen. 2 out of how many? Nobody that I am aware of has taken all of India. I can think of several where the invasion of Pearl lost the game for Japan, and not all that far back in history Pearl was deemed invincible.

I think Pearl and N. America are both the Olorin pickup by you, right? Been following that AAR, far from over, quite exciting actually, I look forward to almost daily reading and posts. You are playing the Japanese side. But it was quite the opening!

Only 2 Japanese auto victories!? Doesn't sound very likely then. Even with Olorins great opening, may still not happen. So, 2 out of countless games, doesn't seem that far fetched. Take a few key decisions in the actual war, and, a remove a little luck at Midway (and a bad radio), and, the war (while it would have had the same ending) could have had quite a different timetable. Only takes a few key decisions here or there and the war could have been drastically changed. Either direction. So, a better Japanese game player should be able to outdo a weak Allied player. And vice versa. Nothing wrong with that.

When I bought the game, I thought it was important that each side had a roughly equal chance of "winning", being defined as the official rule victory. The more I read and play, I don't think so any more. It's about the game and enjoyment, not, some victory condition. I definitely agree with the comments and advice given to discuss the objectives and goals of playing the game via PBEM with the opponent beforehand, agree on some rules, etc. Before I ever play a campaign, I will spend a lot of time on this to make sure we are aligned. As they said, who would want to pay for years only to have one player quite over a disagreement. And, while I would always be a Jap player, I sure understand how it's bad for the Allied player when his side gets demolished for a while, and then the other guy quits before the Allied player can have his fun!

Only 2 because what happens instead is the Allied player throws in the towel, giving it up as inevitable.

[geofflambert]

I just have a hard time picturing Japanese pedaling up Route 66 on their bikes. Will the US surrender if they capture Boulder City Nevada? No oil at that time was brought up out of the ground on the West Coast. The factories and population centers were in the northeast. The troops restricted to the West Coast are formidable. Doesn't make any sense to me and I doubt it did to them either. As for the Europe first thing, the US was already heavily invested in that theatre. We sure didn't want the Soviets to lose. Here's a question, would it be better for the Soviets to capture more of Europe than they did anyway, or capture Manchuria and Korea and more besides? There's no debate on that. Is there? It's perfectly fine with me if people want to playtest that sort of thing but whether the game permits you to do it is moot. I know there are many players who care what the arbitrary and inflexible point system says but I don't give a hoot. The Allied side will win in the end and if something different happens it is not the fault of the game, look elsewhere.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Zorch

Can I make my own 'small rant'?

I resent having to scroll all the way down the forum page to get to the WitP-AE section. Look at all the 'New Releases' that have no activity at all. Let's petition Matrix to move WitP-AE up to its rightful place at the top! [;)]

I now return this thread to its topic. [:D]

Uh, you do know how to bookmark a web page?[;)]

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: crsutton
Uh, you do know how to bookmark a web page?[;)]

+1

[:D][:D][:D]

[&o][&o][&o]

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: Zorch

Can I make my own 'small rant'?

I resent having to scroll all the way down the forum page to get to the WitP-AE section. Look at all the 'New Releases' that have no activity at all. Let's petition Matrix to move WitP-AE up to its rightful place at the top! [;)]

I now return this thread to its topic. [:D]

Uh, you do know how to bookmark a web page?[;)]

Nuthin quite like an old Netscape user reverting to antiquated terminology.......[:D]


I used Netscape back in the day as well. [8D]

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: Zorch

Can I make my own 'small rant'?

I resent having to scroll all the way down the forum page to get to the WitP-AE section. Look at all the 'New Releases' that have no activity at all. Let's petition Matrix to move WitP-AE up to its rightful place at the top! [;)]

I now return this thread to its topic. [:D]

Uh, you do know how to bookmark a web page?[;)]

Nuthin quite like an old Netscape user reverting to antiquated terminology.......[:D]


I used Netscape back in the day as well. [8D]

They are called bookmarks in Chrome, too.

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: crsutton





Uh, you do know how to bookmark a web page?[;)]

Nuthin quite like an old Netscape user reverting to antiquated terminology.......[:D]


I used Netscape back in the day as well. [8D]

They are called bookmarks in Chrome, too.

Copycats!

Aren't there laws against plagiarism?

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


Copycats!

Aren't there laws against plagiarism?

Yes, but those laws were copied!

[Zorch]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: crsutton





Uh, you do know how to bookmark a web page?[;)]

Nuthin quite like an old Netscape user reverting to antiquated terminology.......[:D]


I used Netscape back in the day as well. [8D]

They are called bookmarks in Chrome, too.

That takes all the fun out of it! [;)]

[geofflambert]

No, I don't have any porn bookmarks![:D]