Semi OT..Are carriers obsolete?

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AW1Steve
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RE: Semi OT..Are carriers obsolete?

Post by AW1Steve »

Are carriers obsolete? No. Unless air bases are obsolete. And air planes are obsolete. Then yes. A carrier is simply a moving airbase with no fixed address. It is entirely centered around its aircraft. As long as it can service , carry , launch and recover air craft , then its as useful as any air base , and much more flexible then most. It's aircraft , tactics , electronics and defenses will change , for as long as they are viable , and the carrier is NOT used stupidly , it will continue to be useful.
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Feltan
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RE: Semi OT..Are carriers obsolete?

Post by Feltan »

ORIGINAL: Big B

OMG, that's from the Clinton News Network - I wouldn't believe them if they told me that it was daylight until I checked for myself, I have more faith in Pravda than them. (by the way - that was NOT pointed at you Lecivius)

No, carriers are no-where near being obsolete.... period.

Perhaps you are correct.

But, keep in mind, the big gun club took a long time to realize that the era of the BB had passed.

I don't think the CV/CVN is going to retire from the world's fleets anytime soon. However, they are under potential threats that haven't been seen since the height of the cold war.

And, the simple fact is that if a few are sunk by, say, a anti-carrier missile or a relatively cheap diesel electric submarine -- the calculus of deterrence will be forever changed.

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Feltan
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rustysi
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RE: Semi OT..Are carriers obsolete?

Post by rustysi »

+1
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In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb
Big B
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RE: Semi OT..Are carriers obsolete?

Post by Big B »

Only because I love to discuss -
The reason I flatly stated CV's are not now - nor going to be obsolete is simply because there is no ther platform that can deliver what they can deliver.

Nowhere in my wildest dreams do I assert that a CV cannot be sunk or crippled.... EVERY ship (and sub) can be destroyed - that is the nature of war. Ever since CV's were created - they have been sunk and crippled - expensive and prestigious as they are.

So that is not my point at all - in fact if proponents of carrier aviation make such a claim are charlatans at best.

The sole reason I flatly stated they are not now, nor will be obsolete, is because they uniquely deliver power projection unattainable by other means.

Loose carriers we and other world navies will no doubt do in any future major confrontation - but they fulfill a role unobtainable by other means.... that is all I meant.
And I include any future drone carrying ships as CV's for this purpose. If they carry aircraft of a sort that deliver bombs or missiles - they are CV's in my definition.


B
ORIGINAL: Feltan

ORIGINAL: Big B

OMG, that's from the Clinton News Network - I wouldn't believe them if they told me that it was daylight until I checked for myself, I have more faith in Pravda than them. (by the way - that was NOT pointed at you Lecivius)

No, carriers are no-where near being obsolete.... period.

Perhaps you are correct.

But, keep in mind, the big gun club took a long time to realize that the era of the BB had passed.

I don't think the CV/CVN is going to retire from the world's fleets anytime soon. However, they are under potential threats that haven't been seen since the height of the cold war.

And, the simple fact is that if a few are sunk by, say, a anti-carrier missile or a relatively cheap diesel electric submarine -- the calculus of deterrence will be forever changed.

Regards,
Feltan
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geofflambert
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RE: Semi OT..Are carriers obsolete?

Post by geofflambert »

I don't think Feltan was being critical and did not think he was attacking your points. We're all open to criticism here, me especially. I don't see a problem here, keep posting as you have. Just checking though, I was teasing with my reference to Prof. Turgeson and I'm patiently waiting for your riposte.

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Lecivius
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RE: Semi OT..Are carriers obsolete?

Post by Lecivius »

Agreed. This is all good, I don't see any attacks here [;)] I can actually see the Pro's & Cons of this debate, but I love the discussion.
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sventhebold
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RE: Semi OT..Are carriers obsolete?

Post by sventhebold »

As long as there are oceans and badguys to be had there WILL be a navy to deal with it.
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RE: Semi OT..Are carriers obsolete?

Post by sfatula »

ORIGINAL: Big B

Only because I love to discuss -
The reason I flatly stated CV's are not now - nor going to be obsolete is simply because there is no ther platform that can deliver what they can deliver.

I would add the word current, i.e., there is no other current platform....

What if I can launch drone from Texas and hit the target in Iran? Then, it's not naval aviation right? What if I could destroy the enemy unit from the sky, via satellite and newer tech being developed? etc. There are all sorts of future possibilities. However, the discussion title means currently, so, I do believe you are correct, or even in the near future. But I do believe that day will come when no longer useful or necessary.

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AW1Steve
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RE: Semi OT..Are carriers obsolete?

Post by AW1Steve »

Carriers have survived nearly 100 years for one reason. They are adaptable. They are a big hunk of floating metal that can be rebuilt , converted and re-imagined. They can launch air strikes , hunt submarines , launch IRBMs (off the Midway class with V-2's) turned into commando and helo carriers , carry mine hunting and sweeping helos, and in the case of Haiti , be the worlds largest Army transports. It's the inherent flexibility that keeps them in the forefront.

They are "motherships" to destroyers and cruisers , and God knows what next.

As far as submarines and carriers go , everyone who's ever done ASW knows the best place to hunt enemy submarines is immediately behind a CV. And generally behind a unfriendly submarine is a friendly one. And onboard and "cooperating land based aircraft" will train on such subs , track them and stand ready to kill them if necessary. It's all part of the game.

Speaking from the Airborne ASW side , most acoustic ASW operators are shown early in their career (if indeed not in class "A" school) a LOFAR gram of a CV wake. Ostensibly to teach them what a surface warship , especially a carrier looks like. The instructors will look carefully at their students to see which one will speak up and say , "hey , there looks like a ____ behind the CV!". As I said , they teach them young. [:D]
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JeffroK
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RE: Semi OT..Are carriers obsolete?

Post by JeffroK »

For every threat there will be a deterrent, those SAM which where going to knock out aircraft are decoyed by chaff or IR flares, increasingly ships are being armed with "Phalanx" type AAA, decoy kites & balloons.

Some nations have more need to project airpower across vast oceans, they will build more CV & seek better ways to defend them, their enemies will try the opposite.

IMVHO, the biggest threat to the US CV fleet would be explosive laden speedboats, you have to get near to shore at some point and there are plenty of idiots out there!!
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Big B
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RE: Semi OT..Are carriers obsolete?

Post by Big B »

LMAO at that one [:D]

Agreed - no shortage of idiots out there...

ORIGINAL: JeffK
IMVHO, the biggest threat to the US CV fleet would be explosive laden speedboats, you have to get near to shore at some point and there are plenty of idiots out there!!
witpaemail
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RE: Semi OT..Are carriers obsolete?

Post by witpaemail »

I cant see "national drone carriers". Yeah, it might be a good idea to convert a few of the helo carriers to this purpose, but 2 major powers shooting it out with drones isnt likely to happen. The weak link with drones is someone has to control it. That communication can be jammed or otherwise interfered with. It would suck huge for a country to invest in a mess of drone carriers only to find the enemy has the ability to over-ride and take control of those drones and use them against you.

That was nearly the case in Iraq. The bad guys had already learned how to tap into the camera signals and could see what the operator could see. It wouldnt have taken much to actually take control of it. Therein lies the danger of weaponizing drones.
Texican
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RE: Semi OT..Are carriers obsolete?

Post by Texican »

Aircraft carriers don't rule anything in equally matched, high-tech standoffs. They go bye-bye real fast. The sub is the strategic weapon.

However, in dealing with 2nd and 3rd world countries, aircraft carriers do just fine. And that's the reality we have right now.

But, if there were ever a war between technological equivalent superpowers (U.S. vs. Europe is only scenario that could happen, China and Russia are not up to par), I would think that the CVN's would be best staying close to home.
goblinteasemaid
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RE: Semi OT..Are carriers obsolete?

Post by goblinteasemaid »

Ah yes, so right

remember USS Cole in Aden yr 2000

google it

sorry guys forgot to quote
desicat
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RE: Semi OT..Are carriers obsolete?

Post by desicat »

Drones, UAV's, missiles, blah blah blah. Much like Amateurs talking tactics and Professionals talking logistics, in the next war electronic countermeasures and jamming will strike the "gadgets" from the sky and humans operating machines will decide the conflict.
goblinteasemaid
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RE: Semi OT..Are carriers obsolete?

Post by goblinteasemaid »

And your evidence is....

Amateurs, that you deride, now have access to drones for a few $100, with an unprecedented level of sophistication. Think what threat they will pose in a few years in the hands of our greatest EU problem ISIS.

I see a whole new species unmanned tactical devices, just look at Boston dynamics and where thats going, a nuclear powered DOG? Creep around, no need for resupply or pee-breaks, what kind weapon would he carry?

I still can't get my head around the Gotland class AIP sub and its implications
desicat
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RE: Semi OT..Are carriers obsolete?

Post by desicat »

Last time I checked the CVN was a "Blue Water" asset operating well offshore. The next major war, one where CVN's could be threatened will kick off with all satellites blinded/destroyed and the electromagnetic spectrum severely degraded. Drones will not be a factor for ships operating over the horizon.

Drones may be a problem for the Army in close-in city fighting, but they will be blind out at sea. The serious war fighters in the Navy hate the LCS as it is too dependent upon electronic force multipliers.

War games always either play with limited or no jamming allowed, otherwise the vast majority of assets are of no value and the "game" gets really deadly very fast.

Edit: as far as enemy subs are concerned (both robotic and manned), they have to get past their USN brethren first, not an insignificant feat.
goblinteasemaid
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RE: Semi OT..Are carriers obsolete?

Post by goblinteasemaid »

What amazes me, call me naive, is that these games assume you can use a tactical nuke, without unleashing grave strategic consequences. Are we forgetting the geo political dimension. The day any power choses a nuke , is the start of Armageddon. Thats not in your scripts.

You want to take out satellites with a high altitude EMP?

Remember the Korean war. The Chinese overwhelmed the field by sheer weight of numbers, sending in more people than than we had bullets. Thats what we are facing in Europe.

The joker is that we created this scenario

We took out Sadam H (former great CIA buddy BTW) and had no plan in place for the peace. I was in the area at the time.

We intervened in Libya and took out Ghadafi - why?

Now we've got Syria and a war that will go on 10+ years and cost EU billions

Just where do all these high tech war toys figure?

But I really like Boston Dynamics, as a former control systems and AI engineer I can really appreciate the incredible skill
desicat
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RE: Semi OT..Are carriers obsolete?

Post by desicat »

They are not in "my" scripts, there are War plans on the shelf.

CVN's are strategic assets, and if the scenario is dire enough to threaten them I would not expect GPS or any other satellites to be around to threaten them. You called for the deployment of tactical nukes, not me. The deployment of tactical nukes in an EMP role is the jackhammer of jamming, there are other ways that use much more finesse.

The political interventions that you are critical of were most assuredly not supported by the JCS and Theater commands behind the scenes. This excludes taking out SH, as the National Security Strategy specifically addressed that situation and it led directly to the Green Revolution in Lebanon and Iran, both missed strategic opportunities - a far cry from "no plan".

The big boy jammers and WARM modes aren't needed in the small fry engagements currently in vogue, but if a CVN was in danger then all bets would be off.
Dili
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RE: Semi OT..Are carriers obsolete?

Post by Dili »

The issue in Middle East(and North Africa) has much more to do with region/religion/political dynamics than what US or anyone else did or do. Arab Socialism failed and Islamism returned and with it the sunni-shia fight, etc. Saddam (81 years old today) would be at end of his life if not already dead naturally or by a coup.

If a carrier has to enter the persian gulf then it is always at risk.
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