JFBs-You have been warned!

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crsutton
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JFBs-You have been warned!

Post by crsutton »

Hi boys,

If we Allied players do not already bring enough pain to your carefully constructed houses of glass, I wanted to open a discussion on one little item in the last patch that has gotten little mention but has potentially a significant effect on game play. Prior to the patch it was not possible to designate carrier bombers for "city attack" unless the air units were in actual range of the target. Other attack such as airfield, ground, and naval could be set a turn prior before you ran the carriers into range of the target thus needing only one turn in the target area to conduct a raid. However with a city attack the carrier TF needed to move into the (usually seven hex) range of the base, then set the attack for the city target and conduct the attack the following turn. The downside to this is that the Japanese player had one full turn to spot the carriers and then move resources in to counter the expected attack.

Since the patch the carrier TF can now target "city attack" prior to the run in just as it can any other type of attack. The ramifications for the Japanese oil centers in the DEI are big and makes them much more vulnerable to a raid on the oil facility. In my current game, I was able to run a raid on Soerabaja in early 43 and just about knock out all the oil production there. I suspect this will also come in to play late in the war when massive carrier raids on Japaneses factories will be possible. The end result for a Japanese player is that he must now reserve aircraft and AA guns to protect his rear oilfields at all times. I know a lot of players ignore this in order to put maximum effort and air power into the point of their offensive campaigns but now you no longer have the luxury of a turns warning to move assets back to protect your oil centers.

Well there you have it. You have been warned....[;)]
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Chickenboy
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RE: JFBs-You have been warned!

Post by Chickenboy »

Domo arigato, Mister Sutton-o. [&o]
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DanSez
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RE: JFBs-You have been warned!

Post by DanSez »

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Hi boys,

... I was able to run a raid on Soerabaja in early
... I know a lot of players ignore this in order to put maximum effort and air power into the point of their offensive campaigns but now you no longer have the luxury of a turns warning to move assets back to protect your oil centers.

I am not an expert on the subject but would suspect that by early 43, most of the Japanese Offensive efforts have already been spent outside of possibly China, and that doesn't require that much air power.

I assume this applies to both sides so in the '42 early sunrise, the KB can run in and launch city attacks against Australian or even West Coast cities.

Thanks for the warning.
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zuluhour
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RE: JFBs-You have been warned!

Post by zuluhour »

HAI! CR san
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dr.hal
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RE: JFBs-You have been warned!

Post by dr.hal »

Interesting... I've never gotten that far in a game, but it's a good tip to be aware of... From both side's perspective. Thanks. Hal
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Lowpe
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RE: JFBs-You have been warned!

Post by Lowpe »

Which patch? Official?

Doesn't seem to work for Japan...still need to get within some arcane extended strike range plus movement range formula distance.
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RE: JFBs-You have been warned!

Post by crsutton »

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Which patch? Official?

Doesn't seem to work for Japan...still need to get within some arcane extended strike range plus movement range formula distance.

Should work but I can say that is seems a bit buggy. The first time I tried it the aircraft would not set the target out of range and I just assumed it was SOP but six months later I tried it again and to my delight the aircraft did set the target. However I had two TFs one with CVs and one with CVEs. None of the attack units on my CVEs would set city attack to target but all my units in my fleet carriers did[X(] Fortunately, both TFs were in the same hex so I just clicked on the set all Dive bombers in this hex button after setting one of the fleet carrier units and all of the CVE units were set after that. A bit strange but in the end it worked and all units went is and "tossed his salad."

This change was mentioned in the notes for the last official patch.
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crsutton
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RE: JFBs-You have been warned!

Post by crsutton »

ORIGINAL: DanSez

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Hi boys,

... I was able to run a raid on Soerabaja in early
... I know a lot of players ignore this in order to put maximum effort and air power into the point of their offensive campaigns but now you no longer have the luxury of a turns warning to move assets back to protect your oil centers.

I am not an expert on the subject but would suspect that by early 43, most of the Japanese Offensive efforts have already been spent outside of possibly China, and that doesn't require that much air power.

I assume this applies to both sides so in the '42 early sunrise, the KB can run in and launch city attacks against Australian or even West Coast cities.

Thanks for the warning.

A good Japanese player can "keep up the skeer" until mid 43. With pdf on and the production of the tojo, a Japanese player can hold air superiority until the hellcat arrives in numbers. But my point is if the oil centers are left undefended this tactic will work at any time. It should cause the Japanese player some pause for consideration as in the early months even Japan is hurting for enough planes. Likewise as pointed out it can be used vs the Allies early in the war to hit valuable aircraft factories on the West Coast.
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Lowpe
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RE: JFBs-You have been warned!

Post by Lowpe »

Well, I can't get it to work. I don't see how it would as you would have to choose from a menu including every enemy base with a factory or resource...a screen picture might help if that doesn't break opsec.
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RE: JFBs-You have been warned!

Post by crsutton »

Here it is. Target is set for a city attack 18 hexes away.

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Yaab
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RE: JFBs-You have been warned!

Post by Yaab »

Wait, no prior photo recon of the target? I guess it would have equalled to "mission failed" in the real life.
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Lowpe
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RE: JFBs-You have been warned!

Post by Lowpe »

So for the SBD-3, with what a normal range of 7?, you can target bases 20 hexes away given your task force's speed and fuel I guess.

So maybe a flank speed of 12 plus 8 for extended range of the SBD....just got to get those pickets out there. For both sides.
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RE: JFBs-You have been warned!

Post by Jorge_Stanbury »

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Wait, no prior photo recon of the target? I guess it would have equalled to "mission failed" in the real life.

As Yaab said.. shouldn't DL=0 mean poor bombing results?
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crsutton
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RE: JFBs-You have been warned!

Post by crsutton »

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Wait, no prior photo recon of the target? I guess it would have equalled to "mission failed" in the real life.

As Yaab said.. shouldn't DL=0 mean poor bombing results?

Recon was with a PBY recon Liberator so detection was at the top. Granted raids with no recon will provide lower results. Still oil is oil and 25 hits on an oil facility in 3/42 is still a big deal. Ask any Japanese player. Rebuilding is expensive and even that little oil production lost adds up over time. As it was, I was able to take out 147 oil points in one raid. That kind of math does not bode well..
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RE: JFBs-You have been warned!

Post by JeffroK »

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Wait, no prior photo recon of the target? I guess it would have equalled to "mission failed" in the real life.
Plenty of wartime bombing took place with zero/little recon, great to have a modifier but it shouldn't stop the attack.

Most pre war industry was clearly marked on maps, oil refineries stand out fairly clearly against the jungle.
Then you would have the skill of the pilots affecting the results.
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RE: JFBs-You have been warned!

Post by witpaemail »

ORIGINAL: crsutton
ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Wait, no prior photo recon of the target? I guess it would have equalled to "mission failed" in the real life.

As Yaab said.. shouldn't DL=0 mean poor bombing results?

Recon was with a PBY recon Liberator so detection was at the top. Granted raids with no recon will provide lower results. Still oil is oil and 25 hits on an oil facility in 3/42 is still a big deal. Ask any Japanese player. Rebuilding is expensive and even that little oil production lost adds up over time. As it was, I was able to take out 147 oil points in one raid. That kind of math does not bode well..

It takes 2.73 years production to make up 1 point of repair. So if you hit it in 3/42, it wouldnt be worth repairing as you would have to make the war last, and keep the base, and keep the base from getting further damage until 12/44. It takes that long to recoup the 1000 points it cost to repair it.

I can see this strat working to bomb an AI Jap player. The AI is not quite as smart as my dog. But any Jap player is likely to have a number of land based and carrier based air assets in the area in 3/42. Enough to make an allied player regret this move.

I as a mainly Jap player always wait to take out the oil centers last for 2 reasons. 1) if the defending ground units cant retreat, they are far less likely to blow up stuff, and 2) to keep the allied player from bombing them with B17s.

This type of raid might be attainable in 43, if the Japanese player is foolish enough not to maintain a picket line in the holes in his air coverage. That would be the eastern Pacific, and eastern Indian oceans. Not likely to be successful against a good Jap player.

Of course it is easily done by the allies in late 44 on, but by then the Jap player probably doesnt need the oil anymore anyway. If the allied player has no other targets for his carriers to hit other than cities, the Jap probably doesnt have much use for the oil anyways.
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RE: JFBs-You have been warned!

Post by crsutton »

ORIGINAL: witpaemail
ORIGINAL: crsutton
ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury




As Yaab said.. shouldn't DL=0 mean poor bombing results?

Recon was with a PBY recon Liberator so detection was at the top. Granted raids with no recon will provide lower results. Still oil is oil and 25 hits on an oil facility in 3/42 is still a big deal. Ask any Japanese player. Rebuilding is expensive and even that little oil production lost adds up over time. As it was, I was able to take out 147 oil points in one raid. That kind of math does not bode well..

It takes 2.73 years production to make up 1 point of repair. So if you hit it in 3/42, it wouldnt be worth repairing as you would have to make the war last, and keep the base, and keep the base from getting further damage until 12/44. It takes that long to recoup the 1000 points it cost to repair it.

I can see this strat working to bomb an AI Jap player. The AI is not quite as smart as my dog. But any Jap player is likely to have a number of land based and carrier based air assets in the area in 3/42. Enough to make an allied player regret this move.

I as a mainly Jap player always wait to take out the oil centers last for 2 reasons. 1) if the defending ground units cant retreat, they are far less likely to blow up stuff, and 2) to keep the allied player from bombing them with B17s.

This type of raid might be attainable in 43, if the Japanese player is foolish enough not to maintain a picket line in the holes in his air coverage. That would be the eastern Pacific, and eastern Indian oceans. Not likely to be successful against a good Jap player.

Of course it is easily done by the allies in late 44 on, but by then the Jap player probably doesnt need the oil anymore anyway. If the allied player has no other targets for his carriers to hit other than cities, the Jap probably doesnt have much use for the oil anyways.


It really depends on your opponent but in my experience and in reading AARs-even good players usually give little priority to building up defenses in the DEI early in the game. The problem is that with extended campaigns going on in India, China, Australia or the South Pacific the natural tendency is to push as much air power to the front lines as possible and leave the rear stuff until later. The very point of this type of raid is to convince the Japanese player that there is a need to keep air units defending his oil facilities at all times thus lessening the pressure on the Allied armies all along the front.

The earlier the better but there is no bad time to hit Japanese oil production. And a 1942 raid is not out of the questions as you generally know exactly where KB is during this time and at best, the Japanese player will have Oscars and a few zeros defending these bases. I can almost promise that few Japanese players will hold many valuable Nells and Bettys in the rear at this point. You risk losing a carrier but that risk is there whenever you use them, and I think I would gladly trade a carrier for 150 oil production points at that early stage.

You take what your opponent gives you. If the oil centers are well defended then there is less Japanese air power at the point of contact. That in itself presents opportunities. But my point is just that. Ignore the defense of these centers at your own peril. And, always read the patch notes.[:-]
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RE: JFBs-You have been warned!

Post by PaxMondo »

ORIGINAL: crsutton
It really depends on your opponent but in my experience and in reading AARs-even good players usually give little priority to building up defenses in the DEI early in the game. The problem is that with extended campaigns going on in India, China, Australia or the South Pacific the natural tendency is to push as much air power to the front lines as possible and leave the rear stuff until later. The very point of this type of raid is to convince the Japanese player that there is a need to keep air units defending his oil facilities at all times thus lessening the pressure on the Allied armies all along the front.

The earlier the better but there is no bad time to hit Japanese oil production. And a 1942 raid is not out of the questions as you generally know exactly where KB is during this time and at best, the Japanese player will have Oscars and a few zeros defending these bases. I can almost promise that few Japanese players will hold many valuable Nells and Bettys in the rear at this point. You risk losing a carrier but that risk is there whenever you use them, and I think I would gladly trade a carrier for 150 oil production points at that early stage.

You take what your opponent gives you. If the oil centers are well defended then there is less Japanese air power at the point of contact. That in itself presents opportunities. But my point is just that. Ignore the defense of these centers at your own peril. And, always read the patch notes.[:-]
+1

And historically, they did commit resources to defend these sites ....
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RE: JFBs-You have been warned!

Post by Lokasenna »

I want to point out that this was entirely possible before the latest patch, except it was based on the speed moved in the prior turn by the CV TF. I conducted raids with it.

There was a bug before, though - I used a second CV TF that was set to follow the first, and that one didn't calculate the range correctly (treated as if it moved 0 hexes on the last turn). But the first CV TF, if I'd run it at more than 2* cruise speed, was able to select targets that were out to around 26-28 hexes away... the change in the patch makes it more reliable, but is a nerf from previous potential.
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RE: JFBs-You have been warned!

Post by Alfred »

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I want to point out that this was entirely possible before the latest patch, except it was based on the speed moved in the prior turn by the CV TF. I conducted raids with it.

There was a bug before, though - I used a second CV TF that was set to follow the first, and that one didn't calculate the range correctly (treated as if it moved 0 hexes on the last turn). But the first CV TF, if I'd run it at more than 2* cruise speed, was able to select targets that were out to around 26-28 hexes away... the change in the patch makes it more reliable, but is a nerf from previous potential.

That previous bug in theory could arise in other "actions" which involve follow on task forces using the "follow" command as that command technically does not give the follow on task forces a destination. Your first CV TF didn't have a problem because it had a destination. The second CV TF had the problem because it was treated as not having a destination.

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