OT: From the General Forum

[Chickenboy]

Joseph M (Matrix Moderator) recently posted this on a "Holiday Wishlist" thread...

Warspite, for your Mediterranean game, I'm not sure if it has been officially announced, but I will tease that there is something in the works similar to another naval game that people like.

WITP:AE in the Med? [&:][8D][:)]

Anyone heard something more about this?

[Lecivius]

No, but me wants more !![&o]

[dr.hal]

I already asked Santa for one...

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

I already asked Santa for one...

I asked Santa for this at least 8 years ago. Would be a wonderful surprise!

[Dili]

That will be nice. But needs people with knowledge of it. There aren't many that know from Yugoslavia to French army of the levant.

And he said naval game not aeronaval like Witp , but maybe i am nitpicking.
For witp it will have to fix some essential things. LCU's, aircraft need to have fuel consumption instead of only supply consumption otherwise there is no point of sending tankers with fuel to NAfrica like IRL, scale of 20nm max hex. Others exist but these are the major ones.

An advantage of Med is that extra packs can be made with Spanish/Turkish entering in war and even with Easteran African combat.

[warspite1]

Mmmmmmmmm [8D]

[spence]

Since Italian Fleet was severely restricted as fuel availability and the German Navy was all but inconsequential in the Med it would seem that the AXIS PLAYER would be the one with "the other front" eating up all the resources. Actually both players would face that problem though maybe for the AXIS PLAYER things would just go from bad at the start to worse as things developed.

It might also be hard to justify any qualitative superiority for the Axis since it pretty much seems they never won any naval engagements against the Brits. On land and in the air it may have been a different story but for the most part it would be a WitP style game with "5" German units, an Italian Fleet with no fuel, and a bunch of "Chinese Allies" for the Axis.

[Dili]

At day time i only know of 2 engagements 1 went British the other to the Italians. Rest is what you can call draws. At night there was a marked British superiority due to radar.

There were several German units: submarines and PT boats, plus the captured Greek destroyer. There were several of merchants that Germans in game terms were converted to AMC's. Minelayer,s etc...

And a ship that doesn't work in WITP: Fighter direction ship Kreta. The allies had LST operating land radars.

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/featur ... -ship.html


Mediterranean is the ultimate chrome. Even the He111Z appear, the first helicopter, two of the three biggest air assaults of the war, with another potential one.

[warspite1]

If you want the ultimate in big fleet action, then the Pacific is the place to find it. But the Mediterranean theatre is, in many ways more interesting from a war gaming perspective (i.e. either side winning).

By the way, the idea that the Italian navy had no fuel – particularly in the first year of the war is simply wrong. After the first year, things became critical (at least for the capital ships) but by then the Italians should have made their advantages count. But to be clear, the Italians were still able to field capital ships in 1942.

The war there focused largely on the Axis need to supply their troops in North Africa and the British wish to keep Malta in the war. The need for these convoys (and for the enemy to destroy them) resulted in the majority of engagements (both fleet and smaller scale engagements), although there were plenty of other actions – Greece, Crete, Syria – as a result of invasions, evacuations etc. In addition you had the likes of Taranto, the Malta Striking Force, the Italian ‘Human Torpedoes’, the Decima Mas, the intervention by the U-boats….

As for qualitative superiority? In the Littorios, the Italians had ships that were superior to anything the British could muster. The British were also out-numbered in heavy cruisers. The Italian ships had a speed advantage – hence Cunningham’s frustration at Calabria when he couldn’t get his ‘old tarts’ (I believe coined by Somerville in the Indian Ocean) into battle. The Axis had air superiority (although were handicapped by the lack of co-operation between RM and RA) and the introduction of Fliegerkorps X made life especially difficult.

The Royal Navy was also handicapped by the fact it was split between two ends of the Mediterranean, while the RM was concentrated in the centre of the Middle Sea. What handicapped the Italians was Supermarina and its orders to Campioni and later Iachino. Much is made of radar, but the simple fact is Matapan would not have been fought if Cunningham had not had the courage to sail into waters where he was left open to attack by aircraft once the sun came up. The mindset of the commanders was important - witness the Second Battle of Sirte..... The biggest problem the Italians had was that they seemed to be fighting the reputation of the Royal Navy and not the RN as existed in that time period. Swap Cunningham for Campioni and I wonder what could have happened?

There is so much to this theatre. The problem is whether the unique features can be adequately programmed to make a realistic war game - but then that is always the case...

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: spence

Since Italian Fleet was severely restricted as fuel availability and the German Navy was all but inconsequential in the Med it would seem that the AXIS PLAYER would be the one with "the other front" eating up all the resources. Actually both players would face that problem though maybe for the AXIS PLAYER things would just go from bad at the start to worse as things developed.

It might also be hard to justify any qualitative superiority for the Axis since it pretty much seems they never won any naval engagements against the Brits. On land and in the air it may have been a different story but for the most part it would be a WitP style game with "5" German units, an Italian Fleet with no fuel, and a bunch of "Chinese Allies" for the Axis.

You're so bitter I should mix you into some Manhattans. I heard that Japan just runs roughshod all over the Allies in every game of WITP and that the Allies never win, plus they don't get enough resources because the good ol' US of A sent everything to Another Theater. Did you hear all of that too?


The scope of a game set in the Med.(-ish) would probably have to include some of the Atlantic as well, or it wouldn't be very interesting...

[Bullwinkle58]

I thought the "Med Game" being referred to was another extension pack to the WitW engine? The Torch pack is out; I thought the Med was in the works for after or in parallel with WitE 2?

[Lecivius]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

I thought the "Med Game" being referred to was another extension pack to the WitW engine? The Torch pack is out; I thought the Med was in the works for after or in parallel with WitE 2?

I am really stuck on the fence regarding WitW. I like some of the AAR's, but I'm not sure I like some of the game mechanics. I would prefer a stand alone game. In either event, it will be fun to see what plays out.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

I thought the "Med Game" being referred to was another extension pack to the WitW engine? The Torch pack is out; I thought the Med was in the works for after or in parallel with WitE 2?

I am really stuck on the fence regarding WitW. I like some of the AAR's, but I'm not sure I like some of the game mechanics. I would prefer a stand alone game. In either event, it will be fun to see what plays out.

Me too. The problems with the AI (namely, the lack of it altogether) make this a deal-breaker for me.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Joseph M

Unfortunately teasing was probably unfair, as the game in question is still a few years away and details are slim even in Matrix. We'll be posting about this War in the Med game in due course.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

I thought the "Med Game" being referred to was another extension pack to the WitW engine? The Torch pack is out; I thought the Med was in the works for after or in parallel with WitE 2?

My impression was that it was a new stand-alone game, from the guy's comments, not an expansion.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
My impression was that it was a new stand-alone game

Yes, that's the feeling I was left with as well. Sounds like it'll be a bruiser too. [8D]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Joseph M

Unfortunately teasing was probably unfair, as the game in question is still a few years away and details are slim even in Matrix. We'll be posting about this War in the Med game in due course.

warspite1

Well that was something of a let down.....[:(]

[Dili]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: spence

Since Italian Fleet was severely restricted as fuel availability and the German Navy was all but inconsequential in the Med it would seem that the AXIS PLAYER would be the one with "the other front" eating up all the resources. Actually both players would face that problem though maybe for the AXIS PLAYER things would just go from bad at the start to worse as things developed.

It might also be hard to justify any qualitative superiority for the Axis since it pretty much seems they never won any naval engagements against the Brits. On land and in the air it may have been a different story but for the most part it would be a WitP style game with "5" German units, an Italian Fleet with no fuel, and a bunch of "Chinese Allies" for the Axis.

You're so bitter I should mix you into some Manhattans. I heard that Japan just runs roughshod all over the Allies in every game of WITP and that the Allies never win, plus they don't get enough resources because the good ol' US of A sent everything to Another Theater. Did you hear all of that too?


The scope of a game set in the Med.(-ish) would probably have to include some of the Atlantic as well, or it wouldn't be very interesting...

Why?

June 40 War Italy War with UK and France
July 40 France surrenders
October 40 Italian invasion of Greece
April 41 German/Italian invasion of Yugoslavia Kingdom and Greece
Spring 41 Airborne Invasion of Crete
Summer 41 British invasion of French Vichy Levant(Lebanon/Syria) - coup in Iraq
Summer 42 first American air units in theatre.
Nov42 Operation Torch
Surrender/scuttle of French fleet in France ports to the Axis.
Summer43 Operation Husky

War in Med has even a lot of other options: Gibraltar Invasion, Malta invasion,Spain and Turkey to the Axis or Allies, etc.

[Dili]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

There is so much to this theatre. The problem is whether the unique features can be adequately programmed to make a realistic war game - but then that is always the case...

The issue with Mediterranean wargame is the issue that plagues computer wargames since ever.
There isn't one wargame that represents well the warfare in air,land,sea.

WITP/WITP-AE is the only one that tried to do it.

Mediterranean needs all 3 services well modeled. Plus special forces.


Then also has a strong political dimension that is difficult simulate. No one makes war like Italians did: lets start war but all forces should have to have a defensive stance. And there is France/Vichy too.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Dili

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: spence

Since Italian Fleet was severely restricted as fuel availability and the German Navy was all but inconsequential in the Med it would seem that the AXIS PLAYER would be the one with "the other front" eating up all the resources. Actually both players would face that problem though maybe for the AXIS PLAYER things would just go from bad at the start to worse as things developed.

It might also be hard to justify any qualitative superiority for the Axis since it pretty much seems they never won any naval engagements against the Brits. On land and in the air it may have been a different story but for the most part it would be a WitP style game with "5" German units, an Italian Fleet with no fuel, and a bunch of "Chinese Allies" for the Axis.

You're so bitter I should mix you into some Manhattans. I heard that Japan just runs roughshod all over the Allies in every game of WITP and that the Allies never win, plus they don't get enough resources because the good ol' US of A sent everything to Another Theater. Did you hear all of that too?


The scope of a game set in the Med.(-ish) would probably have to include some of the Atlantic as well, or it wouldn't be very interesting...

Why?

June 40 War Italy War with UK and France
July 40 France surrenders
October 40 Italian invasion of Greece
April 41 German/Italian invasion of Yugoslavia Kingdom and Greece
Spring 41 Airborne Invasion of Crete
Summer 41 British invasion of French Vichy Levant(Lebanon/Syria) - coup in Iraq
Summer 42 first American air units in theatre.
Nov42 Operation Torch
Surrender/scuttle of French fleet in France ports to the Axis.
Summer43 Operation Husky

War in Med has even a lot of other options: Gibraltar Invasion, Malta invasion,Spain and Turkey to the Axis or Allies, etc.

Hrm, I should say that I was thinking of naval actions. I didn't mean to imply that nothing at all happened here, just that it wasn't really a naval theater.

June 40 War Italy War with UK and France
-Um, OK I guess.

July 40 France surrenders
-So... a non-event (in action terms) is an event?

October 40 Italian invasion of Greece
-Not naval.

April 41 German/Italian invasion of Yugoslavia Kingdom and Greece
-Again...

Spring 41 Airborne Invasion of Crete
-And again...

Summer 41 British invasion of French Vichy Levant(Lebanon/Syria) - coup in Iraq
-I actually don't know anything about this one

Summer 42 first American air units in theatre.
-OK, so?

Nov42 Operation Torch
-This would need to include the Atlantic, which is what I was thinking of - as well as the Battle of the Atlantic

Surrender/scuttle of French fleet in France ports to the Axis.
-Um, OK.

Summer43 Operation Husky
-The second example in the entire list, and the first that wouldn't require significant portions of the Atlantic to be on the map.